All these within 5 years. Borrowed from MSN.
Tony.
Tony.
Electric cars and trucks.
- Thread starter t-tony
- Start date
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2012
- Points
- 178
- Location
- Newport, South Wales,UK
- Model of Z
- Z3 M43 1.8 (1999) and Z4 E85 2.5 (2003)
Have been watching the Vintage Voltage series on TV, Mid Wales Company that converts classic cars to electric, wonder how they would convert a Z3, be a bit pricy I expect.
www.vintagevoltage.tv
Vintage Voltage - Transforming Classics into Electrifying Rides
Vintage Voltage TV series - converting classic cars to electric power
Going to be some interesting times - some good looking cars there, and some not 
Seems most are following the trend of the SUV, possibly as this helps with battery dispersal around the vehicle.
Will be interesting to here the verdict and sales of the F150
Seems most are following the trend of the SUV, possibly as this helps with battery dispersal around the vehicle.
Will be interesting to here the verdict and sales of the F150
My parents and sister both have full electric cars in the States and love them. For 99 percent of the running around they are perfect. My sister traded in her hybrid years ago as she never put fuel in it so didn't see the need. For the other 1 percent of the time my dad drives a Dodge Cummins with the 6.7 turbo diesel that's been tuned.
About 40kHave been watching the Vintage Voltage series on TV, Mid Wales Company that converts classic cars to electric, wonder how they would convert a Z3, be a bit pricy I expect.
Vintage Voltage - Transforming Classics into Electrifying Rides
Vintage Voltage TV series - converting classic cars to electric power
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2012
- Points
- 178
- Location
- Newport, South Wales,UK
- Model of Z
- Z3 M43 1.8 (1999) and Z4 E85 2.5 (2003)
That's a non starter then
I want need.. the yellow Renault '5GT Turbo' tribute
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There are and will be many more EVs on our roads of varying designs both good and bad. Apologies, but this is a long read. Necessarily so because the issues are complex (but hopefully informative).
So - Here is my real world experience of a PHEV, and, more importantly, the manufacturer response to emerging problems. Am sure these will all apply to EV only vehicles - the underlying technology remains pretty much the same - just larger.
Been running a PHEV for 2 1/2 years now. As a concept they are a fabulous bridge between solely ICE and EV only. There are some constraints and limitations such as boot space. However, as expected, some issues are now coming out due to battery degradation and they are now exposing the sloping shoulders on the BMW battery warranty. I expect the problems I've experienced will apply to all these EVs - I'll explain what and why shortly.
My 330e is only a 7.5kW battery so distance was never going to be huge (newer models have higher capacity). It is effectively a 265bhp car so no slouch when prodded.
When new it easily hit 20+miles (and often >25 miles) on a single charge. Doing a mixed driving from around town, country roads and frequent 100+ mile round trips, I was getting 65+mpg over thousands of miles - that is a mixture of the £1:20+ (typical) fuel and an overnight charge of 30-45p giving those 20+ EV miles each day. Considering that many of those EV miles were and are done when the ICE would be cold and often unable to reach a working temperature during the often shorter journeys. In those the ICE would probably only achieve 25mpg. So, the daily savings on local journeys are considerable.
After a year the EV distances dropped to 17-19 miles - pretty much predicted and expected.
However, the last twelve months it has dropped to a worryingly low 12-14 miles. The usual software upgrades and removal of adaptations by BMW have provided no recovery of the distance.
Over winter, the daily distances dropped further to 8-9 miles! That is getting worryingly low and seemingly quite common amongst owners. They have recovered a little a temperatures climb again.
So, what have BMW said to my queries and concerns?
Their usual response has been that there is no battery issues whatsoever - everything is fine. It is working within their expectations, without explaining what their expectations are (clearly somewhat different to my expectations and those of other owners). All the internal cells are working and providing sufficient power and are evenly balanced in capacity.
When they charge the car and test drive it they can get 17 miles. Most of you who know me know I won't leave it at that....
So, all that begs a few questions and it has taken some considerable pushing to get some answers to some very specific questions, and also, an understanding of what the technical expectations are compared to the marketing hype. There are some worrisome answers that I expect will apply to every EV & PHEV including, to some degree or other, all these in this post.
So, while BMW hype claimed 26 miles on a charge (and 20+ was easily achieved), their expectation is that 11-25 miles is the reasonable range, but, there are some considerable caveats.
The main one is that the environmental temperature range over which they expect these numbers is very narrow at 10-20°C. That puts much of the UK climate out of their acceptable temperature range!
All testing is done after a charge completed indoors in their workshop. The battery is then nice and warm.
Largest range is only achieved when using preconditioning for several hours. This enables the charging system to power a (small) heater in the HV battery system. Failure to pre-condition voids and distance targets. (n.b. For cars charged outdoors, the HV battery heater is insufficient to fully and properly heat the system, especially in winter months.)
All testing is done with the absolute minimal electrical load - no lights, radio, heating, A/C etc.
All testing us done using a preselected test route that will minimise acceleration and braking etc and at a fixed speed. (reminds you of mpg test regimes and definitely not real world conditions.
All testing presumes the specific ECO Pro mode and a very very light right foot and minimum use of brakes (even though these regenerate power back to the HV system).
A reasonable expectation by BMW is I have found is just 17 miles - substantially short of their 26 mile claims.
They say they will undertake warranty work if distance/capacity falls below 60% - but 60% of what?
It seems it is at best of the 17 miles, not the marketing hype or the as-new distances.
Of course, no-one will tell you any of this.
The reality seems to be then that their warranty may kick in at around 10 miles coverage given all the constraints and limitations stated above.
That probably puts real-world distances in the region of 6-8 miles even with the narrow temperature range and pre-conditioning requirements. A big difference compared to the 20+ as new miles and substantially less than 60% of those early miles.
So, as many have said, it seems that battery degradation is real and extensive. Manufacturers apply massive limitations on the latitude of allowable degradation before they step in. They do so without explaining in any way their reasoning and logic. They just make you, the owner, look stupid.
I expect this will apply to all existing EV and PHEV cars as well as all these new models.
There is coming down the line a whole load of owner complaints unless manufacturers apply far more reasoned and realistic statements of capacity and distances. Their marketing hype is massively inflated (even compared to that we have experienced on ICEs). When many more owners see their EV capacity diminishing quickly, they are likely to poison the well of EV vehicles.
Just saying...
The reality is there is nothing really unexpected in any of this.
Now that all sounds very negative. That isn't entirely the case. It is a fabulous car. Am still achieving an effective 55mpg including the 100+ mile trips often at high speeds. It is very disappointing though that the EV distance is so hugely diminished. That said, there is still plenty of around town driving on a daily basis at about 3ppm compared to the 15+ ppm on petrol (in fact it is probably much higher on a cold engine). Even with lower range, it is still much cheaper to run.
Are EVs the future?
Yes, at least until fuel-cell technology is available.
PHEV's are still a good balance.
Will EVs cause lots of disappointment, heartache and arguments? Almost certainly. But, that is entirely of the manufacturers own making. If there were more transparent then we would all accept lower distances.
Anyone relying on EV only cars for long trips/distances are likely to be very disappointed in the longer term. Expect to get only half as far compared to when your car was new!
That isn't the end - BMW have just removed from their App and website the opportunity for all EV and PHEV owners to see journey by journey battery usage and distances covered. So, what are they now hiding from owners....?
Yet another set of concerns.
So - Here is my real world experience of a PHEV, and, more importantly, the manufacturer response to emerging problems. Am sure these will all apply to EV only vehicles - the underlying technology remains pretty much the same - just larger.
Been running a PHEV for 2 1/2 years now. As a concept they are a fabulous bridge between solely ICE and EV only. There are some constraints and limitations such as boot space. However, as expected, some issues are now coming out due to battery degradation and they are now exposing the sloping shoulders on the BMW battery warranty. I expect the problems I've experienced will apply to all these EVs - I'll explain what and why shortly.
My 330e is only a 7.5kW battery so distance was never going to be huge (newer models have higher capacity). It is effectively a 265bhp car so no slouch when prodded.
When new it easily hit 20+miles (and often >25 miles) on a single charge. Doing a mixed driving from around town, country roads and frequent 100+ mile round trips, I was getting 65+mpg over thousands of miles - that is a mixture of the £1:20+ (typical) fuel and an overnight charge of 30-45p giving those 20+ EV miles each day. Considering that many of those EV miles were and are done when the ICE would be cold and often unable to reach a working temperature during the often shorter journeys. In those the ICE would probably only achieve 25mpg. So, the daily savings on local journeys are considerable.
After a year the EV distances dropped to 17-19 miles - pretty much predicted and expected.
However, the last twelve months it has dropped to a worryingly low 12-14 miles. The usual software upgrades and removal of adaptations by BMW have provided no recovery of the distance.
Over winter, the daily distances dropped further to 8-9 miles! That is getting worryingly low and seemingly quite common amongst owners. They have recovered a little a temperatures climb again.
So, what have BMW said to my queries and concerns?
Their usual response has been that there is no battery issues whatsoever - everything is fine. It is working within their expectations, without explaining what their expectations are (clearly somewhat different to my expectations and those of other owners). All the internal cells are working and providing sufficient power and are evenly balanced in capacity.
When they charge the car and test drive it they can get 17 miles. Most of you who know me know I won't leave it at that....
So, all that begs a few questions and it has taken some considerable pushing to get some answers to some very specific questions, and also, an understanding of what the technical expectations are compared to the marketing hype. There are some worrisome answers that I expect will apply to every EV & PHEV including, to some degree or other, all these in this post.
So, while BMW hype claimed 26 miles on a charge (and 20+ was easily achieved), their expectation is that 11-25 miles is the reasonable range, but, there are some considerable caveats.
The main one is that the environmental temperature range over which they expect these numbers is very narrow at 10-20°C. That puts much of the UK climate out of their acceptable temperature range!
All testing is done after a charge completed indoors in their workshop. The battery is then nice and warm.
Largest range is only achieved when using preconditioning for several hours. This enables the charging system to power a (small) heater in the HV battery system. Failure to pre-condition voids and distance targets. (n.b. For cars charged outdoors, the HV battery heater is insufficient to fully and properly heat the system, especially in winter months.)
All testing is done with the absolute minimal electrical load - no lights, radio, heating, A/C etc.
All testing us done using a preselected test route that will minimise acceleration and braking etc and at a fixed speed. (reminds you of mpg test regimes and definitely not real world conditions.
All testing presumes the specific ECO Pro mode and a very very light right foot and minimum use of brakes (even though these regenerate power back to the HV system).
A reasonable expectation by BMW is I have found is just 17 miles - substantially short of their 26 mile claims.
They say they will undertake warranty work if distance/capacity falls below 60% - but 60% of what?
It seems it is at best of the 17 miles, not the marketing hype or the as-new distances.
Of course, no-one will tell you any of this.
The reality seems to be then that their warranty may kick in at around 10 miles coverage given all the constraints and limitations stated above.
That probably puts real-world distances in the region of 6-8 miles even with the narrow temperature range and pre-conditioning requirements. A big difference compared to the 20+ as new miles and substantially less than 60% of those early miles.
So, as many have said, it seems that battery degradation is real and extensive. Manufacturers apply massive limitations on the latitude of allowable degradation before they step in. They do so without explaining in any way their reasoning and logic. They just make you, the owner, look stupid.
I expect this will apply to all existing EV and PHEV cars as well as all these new models.
There is coming down the line a whole load of owner complaints unless manufacturers apply far more reasoned and realistic statements of capacity and distances. Their marketing hype is massively inflated (even compared to that we have experienced on ICEs). When many more owners see their EV capacity diminishing quickly, they are likely to poison the well of EV vehicles.
Just saying...
The reality is there is nothing really unexpected in any of this.
Now that all sounds very negative. That isn't entirely the case. It is a fabulous car. Am still achieving an effective 55mpg including the 100+ mile trips often at high speeds. It is very disappointing though that the EV distance is so hugely diminished. That said, there is still plenty of around town driving on a daily basis at about 3ppm compared to the 15+ ppm on petrol (in fact it is probably much higher on a cold engine). Even with lower range, it is still much cheaper to run.
Are EVs the future?
Yes, at least until fuel-cell technology is available.
PHEV's are still a good balance.
Will EVs cause lots of disappointment, heartache and arguments? Almost certainly. But, that is entirely of the manufacturers own making. If there were more transparent then we would all accept lower distances.
Anyone relying on EV only cars for long trips/distances are likely to be very disappointed in the longer term. Expect to get only half as far compared to when your car was new!
That isn't the end - BMW have just removed from their App and website the opportunity for all EV and PHEV owners to see journey by journey battery usage and distances covered. So, what are they now hiding from owners....?
Yet another set of concerns.
I personally think we will see new ultra low emission fuel coming out i was reading to day that Audi/ bmw are going to produce Blue fuel which practically have no emmission and over the life of a car have a smaller carbon foot print than the electric cars produced at the moment as for economy my suzuki scross diesel very rarely gives less than 65mpg and is 20 a year road tax
what we actually need is an electric lotus7 style car that you can choose how to utilise the power, like for instance what if you could have a range of say 200 miles but decide to change this to say 50 miles but have tons more ooooph, cram all of the power into a shorter distance, or choose the other end of the spectrum and get more miles.
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The Lotus Evija looks like a smart bit of kit.
ok, i have been giving this some thought, wish i hadn't though.
there are 2 main points of worry.
1. resale value of electric cars, currently its quite simple selling a car - fsh 80000 miles easy eh, but at some point used car sales will have to add a battery capacity degradation scale to an all electric car.
so now we have (eg) fsh, 80000 miles and -38 on the battery. so what impact will this have.
For instance if you have a car that will do 300 miles on one charge then -38 will bring it down to 186 miles, bit scary.
at the moment there doesn't appear to be a universal degradation scale in place for used cars so if one were to appear, and it will have to at some point, then you could find yourself going to bed one night with a £25000 car sat on the drive and wake up to one worth £15000 as someone decided to put in place said scale.
2
now this is something i don't know, how much electrical energy is consumed while charging a battery with degradation loss, is it the same?
i do know that duff battery's get quite warm while charging so yes they may consume the same power but for a lesser return. if this is so then the figures for reduced greenhouse gasses are going to be very wrong as the electric fleet starts to grow and age.
funny side to the elv story, my mother-in-laws brother was having a discussion with his younger brother a while back while sat in the pub.
he was discussing the merits of buying his elv and his main point of pro elv was it would pay for itself in 15 years assuming he kept it, at this point i had to go to the bar just to get away from it as the bit i hadn't mentioned is he was 91 years old at the time.
the point is we all think the air is greener on the other side of the fence (see what i did there), but we all fail to realise that chaos rains supreme and were all just peeing in the wind with our green ideas (though we do still have to try) . abit like the old boy who is no longer with us thinking he will reap the benefits of his elv.
there are 2 main points of worry.
1. resale value of electric cars, currently its quite simple selling a car - fsh 80000 miles easy eh, but at some point used car sales will have to add a battery capacity degradation scale to an all electric car.
so now we have (eg) fsh, 80000 miles and -38 on the battery. so what impact will this have.
For instance if you have a car that will do 300 miles on one charge then -38 will bring it down to 186 miles, bit scary.
at the moment there doesn't appear to be a universal degradation scale in place for used cars so if one were to appear, and it will have to at some point, then you could find yourself going to bed one night with a £25000 car sat on the drive and wake up to one worth £15000 as someone decided to put in place said scale.
2
now this is something i don't know, how much electrical energy is consumed while charging a battery with degradation loss, is it the same?
i do know that duff battery's get quite warm while charging so yes they may consume the same power but for a lesser return. if this is so then the figures for reduced greenhouse gasses are going to be very wrong as the electric fleet starts to grow and age.
funny side to the elv story, my mother-in-laws brother was having a discussion with his younger brother a while back while sat in the pub.
he was discussing the merits of buying his elv and his main point of pro elv was it would pay for itself in 15 years assuming he kept it, at this point i had to go to the bar just to get away from it as the bit i hadn't mentioned is he was 91 years old at the time.
the point is we all think the air is greener on the other side of the fence (see what i did there), but we all fail to realise that chaos rains supreme and were all just peeing in the wind with our green ideas (though we do still have to try) . abit like the old boy who is no longer with us thinking he will reap the benefits of his elv.
You are right on the power issue. My car does consume less power to charge it than it did, but it has reduced less than the fewer miles that it is now doing. Therefore it is less efficient.
However, the green issue is less clear. At times we as a country are producing more than 50% of our electricity from green or renewable sources (not carbon based). As generation is over 80% efficient compared to 50% for an ICE then the relative changes still mean that less effective older EVs are still better for the environment at the point of use.
Still problems at the manufacturing stage due to the metals used but there is no internal combustion engine to manufacture in pure EVs as the motors are much simpler devices.
Even fuel cells will still have rare earth metals in them but that will be a small change compared to those on Catalytic converters.
There is no silver bullet solution to our transport problems.
another part of this is going back to the dying batteries, most elv's are hybrid so you find yourself questioning the fact that the fuel consumption will rise trying to charge a duff battery. will Battery health become part of the MOT, seems to me the MOT has become more about green issues as of late and or geared towards getting rid of older cars leaving us no other option than going down the electric route.
are we going to see car makers getting sued again like we have recently over false pollution claims (mentioning no names).
as it stands now batteries will die just like they do in our phones, how many of us have that one cordless drill we just wont throw out but doesn't hold a charge anymore, the market will be flooded with cars that need new batteries, its going to be a minefield.
are we going to see car makers getting sued again like we have recently over false pollution claims (mentioning no names).
as it stands now batteries will die just like they do in our phones, how many of us have that one cordless drill we just wont throw out but doesn't hold a charge anymore, the market will be flooded with cars that need new batteries, its going to be a minefield.
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until it catches fire, wouldn't want to be trying to get out of there in a hurry, its actually safer to have a tank of fuel than a high discharge battery pack, have you ever seen these batteries go off
Guess it depends on the charging modes on the car. Mine will only charge when flat to provide about 1m of distance unless you specifically tell it to charge to full. Any inefficiency is applied only during that phase.
The cell construction I suspect is different to smaller batteries. They often fail due to chemistry changes and short circuits between plates.
Thermal runaway is quite rare until external forces are applied.
The problem is with EVs rather than PHEVs which have a main and more powerful motive system.
That is the reason why manufacturers are making a rod for their own back with all the highly ambitious miles they state cars can do. Indeed, they probably can when new. After two years owners will be beating their doors down especially as take-up increases and the number of dissatisfied owners starts to grow and acting en-masse.
It seems they, the manufacturers, haven't learned from the VW issues. They are heading for an even bigger fall when courts start using their own claims against them. More realistic figures and tighter definitions of performance envelopes would actually help everyone.
I love my Tesla Model 3 it's great for all the necessary driving the Mrs & I need to do - granted in the current environment my business miles have reduced significantly but the number of miles accrued ferrying the kids about has remained constant.
Now having said that when I feel the need to get out for a drive it's not the Tesla I look to its always the Z3 - I prefer the smell, I prefer the sound but most of all I prefer the analogue driving experience and the fact it doesn't have a passenger airbag (optional extra) or beep at me persistently when I forget to put my seatbelt on.
In short electric might represent the future of driving but only for those who never really enjoyed it in the first place or know any better.
Now having said that when I feel the need to get out for a drive it's not the Tesla I look to its always the Z3 - I prefer the smell, I prefer the sound but most of all I prefer the analogue driving experience and the fact it doesn't have a passenger airbag (optional extra) or beep at me persistently when I forget to put my seatbelt on.
In short electric might represent the future of driving but only for those who never really enjoyed it in the first place or know any better.
The thing that concerns me how are people who live in terraced streets going to charge there cars ?or people who live in flats ?i can see a lot of charging cables being nicked , until we totally rethink our energy infrastructure electric cars will only be available to the rich , most terraced houses really on a really old electricity infrastructure some have supply cables dating back to the 1930s rated at 63 A we just dont have the infrastructure for charging and dont have the capacity with the existing electricity network
these will help a bit:
