Rebody Door locks on Rebody

[argy]

I mounted the handle on the door today. The image below shows where I mounted it. The centre of the handle is around 15mm above the swage line. Having seen where it's internals ended up I think it needs to go another 10-15mm higher up the door than this.

The end of the handle is 45mm from the edge of the door panel. This too is about as close as it is able to go to the edge of the door. Another 5-10mm towards the front of the car would be better.

Inside the 507 handle lever and the cable guide do not match up as well as I would like. The Z3 lever end is exactly where it needs to be so I have to tweak the external handle end of the cable guide. I also discovered that the Z3 lever return strength is not enough to return the lever to the rest position, this is partly due to my aim of ensuring that there is never any load on that lever which, in my understanding, is what leads to deadlocking. I can easily fix that by adding a lever return spring. I verified this by inserting a spring and it did a great job, I just need to make some fixings and choose a more suitable spring.

In my earlier post I mentioned that I wanted to make a few tweaks. They were intended to make installation easier. Having been through the exercise today I think that simplifying the installation is essential. The handle is in a very difficult to access location so making installation easier is a must.

The upshot is that the design of the handle is good. It operates well and there is more than enough leverage to operate the Z3 lever with plentry of slack in the cable. My focus now is on making the installation simpler and adjusting the cable guide to better suit the actual positioning of the handle on the door. Piran and I spoke and I'm hoping to get a set of handles to him by the end of the month...

Door internals

 

[10stb]

I mounted the handle on the door today. The image below shows where I mounted it. The centre of the handle is around 15mm above the swage line. Having seen where it's internals ended up I think it needs to go another 10-15mm higher up the door than this.

The end of the handle is 45mm from the edge of the door panel. This too is about as close as it is able to go to the edge of the door. Another 5-10mm towards the front of the car would be better.

View attachment 307825

Inside the 507 handle lever and the cable guide do not match up as well as I would like. The Z3 lever end is exactly where it needs to be so I have to tweak the external handle end of the cable guide. I also discovered that the Z3 lever return strength is not enough to return the lever to the rest position, this is partly due to my aim of ensuring that there is never any load on that lever which, in my understanding, is what leads to deadlocking. I can easily fix that by adding a lever return spring. I verified this by inserting a spring and it did a great job, I just need to make some fixings and choose a more suitable spring.

In my earlier post I mentioned that I wanted to make a few tweaks. They were intended to make installation easier. Having been through the exercise today I think that simplifying the installation is essential. The handle is in a very difficult to access location so making installation easier is a must.

The upshot is that the design of the handle is good. It operates well and there is more than enough leverage to operate the Z3 lever with plentry of slack in the cable. My focus now is on making the installation simpler and adjusting the cable guide to better suit the actual positioning of the handle on the door. Piran and I spoke and I'm hoping to get a set of handles to him by the end of the month...

Door internals
View attachment 307827

When you've worked out the ideal operating location, will you be supplying a paper template with the handles.

 

[argy]

Yep

 

[Pond]

Having bought and installed a pair of these from Russell (argy), albeit different handles but the same idea and mechanisms, I am at a bit of a loss as to why the distance of the handle centre 'pull' to the door edge is so important TBH.

I am presuming the idea is to keep the bit of string (tiny braided wire) as straight as possible through the cast 'guide' to keep wear to a minimum?

If this is the case, it doesn't really matter IMO as the braided cable is going to wear on the inside of the cast guide no matter what, as soon as you tighten and pull the cable. The guides are rough casted and you can't smooth them internally as they are far too small.

I have installed my handles around 30mm further forward than Russell's template, as it looks far better. The only downside I can see is that because the cable now pulls at an angle, it touches the cast guide at the top, but as said above it touches and is going to wear inside the guide anyway.

The cables Russell uses are so thin I do worry how long they are going to last before wearing through TBH.

 

[argy]

Hi,

The cables are 1.0mm diameter and the intention is that the cables follow the curve of the cable guide and both enter and exit centrally. By following the curve of the guide and avoiding being pulled across ingress and egress holes the stress and wear on the cable is minimal. The 250 handle's position is directly above the Z3 lever and the guide has a simple curve with a fairly gentle radius. The action of the push button, through it's associated lever and the position of the guide are optimised for that application.

The position of the 507 handle is lower on the door than the 250 handle. In fact it's at the same level as the Z3 lever. The action of the 507 handle lever is that it moves from the rear to the front of the car, the desired action of the Z3 lever is from the centre to the outside and slightly down. This makes the cable guide curves complex (as in more than one turn) and tight because the fibreglass door skin is much closer to the Z3 lever. It all makes for a more challenging design.

Having said that I've now formulated a design which will accommodate all of the above and just needs a bit of modelling before production.

The position of the handle relative to the edge of the door is constrained by aesthetics, which would like it to be closer to the edge, and the design of the Z3 door which is different from the original 507 door. 45mm is about as close as it can be. Having said that, I will review the possibility of moving it closer to the edge with the new concept.

Hope this helps

Russell

 

[Pond]

The cables are 1.0mm diameter and the intention is that the cables follow the curve of the cable guide and both enter and exit centrally. By following the curve of the guide and avoiding being pulled across ingress and egress holes the stress and wear on the cable is minimal.

But the cable doesn't 'enter and exit centrally'. It can't. When slack it will sit wherever it decides to sit within the guide (as the guide is over three times the diameter of the cable internally). As soon as you put tension on the cable, ie pull it, it will try to straighten. But it can't straighten, as the guide provides a permanent 'bend' in the cable. So the cable will straighten as much as it can and rub against (in this case) the inside elbow of the guide. Then all the movement of the cable will be permanently rubbing against the inside of the guide, in the same place each time. With the inside of the guide being rough, it is like rubbing the cable against rough (metal) sandpaper.

Therefore positioning the handle 'off centre' to the guide is going to make minimal difference IMO, just a small added place for the cable to rub.

Sleeving the cables with heat shrink (or something similar to protect them) will help longevity immensely IMO. I will have to find new cables to do this, though, as mine have been crimped now!

 

[Duncodin]

But the cable doesn't 'enter and exit centrally'. It can't. When slack it will sit wherever it decides to sit within the guide (as the guide is over three times the diameter of the cable internally). As soon as you put tension on the cable, ie pull it, it will try to straighten. But it can't straighten, as the guide provides a permanent 'bend' in the cable. So the cable will straighten as much as it can and rub against (in this case) the inside elbow of the guide. Then all the movement of the cable will be permanently rubbing against the inside of the guide, in the same place each time. With the inside of the guide being rough, it is like rubbing the cable against rough (metal) sandpaper.

I think what argy is saying is that the rubbing/friction along the length of the cable guide would be no worse than what you get on your bike brake cables or car's hand brake cable. It can't be avoided and may need servicing/replacing after an acceptable number of pulls.

But coming out of the guide at an angle will wear excessively on the edge/rim of the guide likely leading to excess wear and even fraying of the cable.

 

[Pond]

I think what argy is saying is that the rubbing/friction along the length of the cable guide would be no worse than what you get on your bike brake cables or car's hand brake cable. It can't be avoided and may need servicing/replacing after an acceptable number of pulls.

But coming out of the guide at an angle will wear excessively on the edge/rim of the guide likely leading to excess wear and even fraying of the cable.

I know what Russell is saying. I also know how they work in practice, as I have installed them and tested them. Theory and practice are often two very different things.

And believe me, you will be swearing if you have to replace those cables every five minutes. When they break you also won't be able to get into the car, which will be worse.

 

[argy]

I can offer a couple of options to help with your concerns.

1. I have some 1.2mm cable (but I only have 1.0mm crimping ferrules at this time, I will be getting more)
2. I have some brake cable Teflon / PTFE liner. I'm happy to send you some of that. I'll also include it in all future shipments.

Another option would be to string a redundant 1.0mm cable through the guide, the 250 handle lever has 2 sets of holes...

The comment about wear is valid, they will wear. It's unlikely that they will both wear by the same amount and at the same time so I doubt if you'd have problems accessing the car through the other door. I hope / expect that the cables will last for thousands of pulls, the cable isn't really doing a lot of work.

Heat shrink wouldn't help much. It's far softer than the stainless cable and it'd be that which would wear out. Heatshrink would also stiffen the cable and impact the smooth operation of the handle. The Teflon tube does dramatically reduce the friction . Threading this was pretty simple. I threaded some cable through the cable guide then slipped some Teflon tube over the cable (The Teflon tube wouldn't go around the bend by itself. With the cable tensioned at both ends then the Teflon tube easily found its way around the curve.

I would also add that the angle at which the cable enters the guide from the door handle side is minimised because the cable is quite long on that side. It would be a bigger issue if the cable at the Z3 lever end were to be offset. The cable guide has splayed ends to allow for some offset, I never expected everyone to get everything fully aligned so I made allowance for that.

With all things kit car, there are compromises to be had. When the 250 handle system was developed it was with the intention of solving real world problems such as deadlocking and preventing the cable from jumping off the pulley (both of which I have experienced with previous incarnations). The current solution for the 250 handles is, I believe, the most robust of the several that are out there.

I appreciate all of the input and feedback and will always take all comments on board and help out wherever possible and implement changes where it make sense. Product improvement is what this handle was about in the first instance

Cheers
Russell

 

[Pond]

Please don't take my comments as just criticism for the sake of it.
I appreciate what Russell does, and I genuinely believe he is trying to help by designing solutions to problems.

The neoprene sleeves on the cables is a great idea IMO.

 

[argy]

I think we deserve to see some shiny photo's...

 

[Duncodin]

Nice. That looks like it's just a gnat's doodah from where I currently have mine.

 

[Duncodin]

Is your handle the exact same size as the original I sent you? ie my rubber grommet will still fit. (Assuming there's space for a grommet?)

 

[argy]

I believe the original will fit. I will also supply a 3D printed gasket / grommet. I intend to shift it another 5-7mm closer to the edge of the door for improved functionality with the new design. It's becoming real now that I've actually got something on the door...

 

[Duncodin]

I believe the original will fit. I will also supply a 3D printed gasket / grommet. I intend to shift it another 5-7mm closer to the edge of the door for improved functionality with the new design. It's becoming real now that I've actually got something on the door...

Mine's about 35mm from the edge of the door IIR

 

[argy]

Is this about right then?

 

[Duncodin]

Are you asking me?

At this rate I'll be able to use my existing holes.

But you gotta do it where you think it's best. I'm happy to chop my door to suit whatever you do.

 

[Duncodin]

Also - don't ask me to fit new handles in relation to swage lines. My right hand one isn't where it was

Top and bottom of the door line up but swage line miles out - only on driver side.

Had to cut it off and stick it back on. Don't know if tribute did a design change and I got different doors - or maybe eveeyone else just mounted their driver side higher than the passenger side.

 

[argy]

oooo
looks a bit tricky :-(...

I think it's a happy coincidence that my design requires the handle to be where it is in the photo. I managed to move some internals to avoid having to move the exterior position of the handle and its position relative to the swage line is pretty much ideal. Moving it up or down would rpobably have required a(nother) different design.

I'll be creating a paper template which will define the handle's position relative to the top of the door panel, hopefully that will be relatively static. I just hope that the swage lines remain static too

A few more design tweaks then it'll be off to production, hopefully within the next week.

 

[argy]

On the subject of door handle gaskets.

I've 3D printed a rubber gasket. 1.2mm thick, it just sits around the edge of the handle. I know that there are others made from moulded rubber which probably form a small cup that the handle sits inside of. I could have a go at doing something similar but 3D printed rubber gaskets can get a bit messy on their top surface which is why I like to keep them underneath. Maybe I could send one to @Duncodin for comparison purposes?

Another consideration is that the gasket looks like it might interfere with the handle's hinge pin. If so I can slim the gasket a bit or maybe trim a small section around where the head of the hinge protrudes.

I think it might be useful to put a couple of uprisers into areas where there aren't any moving parts, just to keep everything tucked under the rim of the handle. I'm thinking at either end of the handle and at the point between the hinge and the push button well.

I'd be interesting to see the shape of the original... Any photo's available?

Ian, let me know if you'd like to review the gasket, I can send you a handle base too. I've ordered some more of everything in what I hope to be the final iteration so it's back to the waiting game...