E89 Roof operation impaired!

[Redline]

Seeking help and advice if anyone has had experience with this.

Took Gail's car out this morning on a trip to buy food. Too nice to leave it in the garage.
Immediately on pressing the roof open button the display chirped with a "Roof operation impaired" message (or similar).

The rear window panel opened fully, but the boot section only popped open a fraction and then stopped. The error message came up immediately on pressing he button before anything started to move. It all closed again without problems. Repeated attempts met with the same response.

Sounds like a sensor issue.
Anyone any thoughts on where to start looking?
Where are the sensors situated? Are they easy to access?

Could be associated with the damage repairs done last year - that whole boot panel will have been removed and reinstalled, although the roof itself has been working ok since.

Can any of the software packages access the roof controller to get diagnostic messages? If so, which package is best to try?
Am guessing Carly doesn't see this controller but will try again later.

TIA.

 

[Nodzed]

Unfortunately (or fortunately maybe) I can't help Ian as so far the roof on mine has been OK. I think Carly will read the codes, I'll check for you and let you know.

 

[Nodzed]

Seeking help and advice if anyone has had experience with this.

Took Gail's car out this morning on a trip to buy food. Too nice to leave it in the garage.
Immediately on pressing the roof open button the display chirped with a "Roof operation impaired" message (or similar).

The rear window panel opened fully, but the boot section only popped open a fraction and then stopped. The error message came up immediately on pressing he button before anything started to move. It all closed again without problems. Repeated attempts met with the same response.

Sounds like a sensor issue.
Anyone any thoughts on where to start looking?
Where are the sensors situated? Are they easy to access?

Could be associated with the damage repairs done last year - that whole boot panel will have been removed and reinstalled, although the roof itself has been working ok since.

Can any of the software packages access the roof controller to get diagnostic messages? If so, which package is best to try?
Am guessing Carly doesn't see this controller but will try again later.

TIA.

Hi Yes Carly will show roof fault codes

These seem to be common ones

Fault Code: 00A698
Fault Explanation: :Hall sensor VSW10 / Koppel shutter open /
Temperature sensor of the pressure pump / Convertible top lid open

Fault Code: 00A69E
Fault Explanation: :Speed too high / @ / valve V5 / valve F2 / Relay
RPS pump rod / Relay pump RP1

Fault Code: 00A6A4
Fault Explanation: :supply limit sensors / Exceeding of the speed /
Control buttons / Hubdach / @ / Top connector removed

Fault Code: 00A690
Fault Explanation: :Rotary encoder main column / Hall sensor
VSW5.1 / Hall sensor placed VSW2.2 main column / Hall sensor
VSW4.2 / Hall sensor VSW4.1 / @@

Fault Code: 00A694
Fault Explanation: :Hall sensor VSW6.2 / Hall sensor VSW8 / Hall
sensor VSW6.3 / Micro switch SW HUNT (MS12) shelf below / Hall
sensor VSW6.1 / Supply rotary encoder / Hall sensor VSW1.2
convertible top lid open

 

[Redline]

Hi Yes Carly will show roof fault codes

These seem to be common ones

Fault Code: 00A698
Fault Explanation: :Hall sensor VSW10 / Koppel shutter open /
Temperature sensor of the pressure pump / Convertible top lid open

Fault Code: 00A69E
Fault Explanation: :Speed too high / @ / valve V5 / valve F2 / Relay
RPS pump rod / Relay pump RP1

Fault Code: 00A6A4
Fault Explanation: :supply limit sensors / Exceeding of the speed /
Control buttons / Hubdach / @ / Top connector removed

Fault Code: 00A690
Fault Explanation: :Rotary encoder main column / Hall sensor
VSW5.1 / Hall sensor placed VSW2.2 main column / Hall sensor
VSW4.2 / Hall sensor VSW4.1 / @@

Fault Code: 00A694
Fault Explanation: :Hall sensor VSW6.2 / Hall sensor VSW8 / Hall
sensor VSW6.3 / Micro switch SW HUNT (MS12) shelf below / Hall
sensor VSW6.1 / Supply rotary encoder / Hall sensor VSW1.2
convertible top lid open

Got to go find my ODBC dongle. Got to be in one of the cars somewhere.
Thanks

 

[HoodTech]

More than likely a microswitch issue on either side storage lid catch assembly, adjacent to the boot seal... Live data will be useful if to hand.

If not, a multimeter on the back of the plug to test for resistance and compare with a good known value.

Make sure there is no water ingress evident in boot as the CVM block connector can begin to corrode and create issues.

To remove the switch, scribe the existing frame nuts in this area and support the rear deck. Remove x3 13mm nuts this will give you access to the switch for removal. Ensure you align the existing frame correctly, you don't need a bent frame or catch assembly.

Diagnose the issue correctly before throwing money at parts. All the best.

 

[Redline]

More than likely a microswitch issue on either side storage lid catch assembly, adjacent to the boot seal... Live data will be useful if to hand.

If not, a multimeter on the back of the plug to test for resistance and compare with a good known value.

Make sure there is no water ingress evident in boot as the CVM block connector can begin to corrode and create issues.

To remove the switch, scribe the existing frame nuts in this area and support the rear deck. Remove x3 13mm nuts this will give you access to the switch for removal. Ensure you align the existing frame correctly, you don't need a bent frame or catch assembly.

Diagnose the issue correctly before throwing money at parts. All the best.

Many thanks. Bit of a coincidence you commented - will take a look at the electrics, but I suspect it may not be an electrical issue, or at least not directly.
Had a look at the problem - It looks like there is some locking mechanism that isn't releasing. The drivers side simply doesn't not move when the rear panel starts to open - it seems firmly locked in position. The left hand side starts to open and then the whole panel twists.

The car was repaired last year when someone ran into the back of it. BMW did nearly £9ks worth of repair so it has a lifetime warranty. I suspect the failure may be related to that work. Of course, there is nothing we can do to get it looked at at the moment. Most frustrating. At least I still have the E85 for when it is possible to go out.

 

[HoodTech]

My apologies, I didn't realise just the one side was releasing, I agree this sounds like a mechanical/hydraulic issue. The catches we are speaking of are actuated by hydraulic cylinders just like the rear window shell.

If this side isn't releasing this could certainly be an alignment issue if any of the alignment nuts/bolts have worked loose over the year.

This could also be a hydraulic line flow rate issue or the internal seal of the cylinder being damaged for whatever reason. I assume hydraulic oil level for the roof is level and constant.

The hydraulic lines for this cylinder run very close to the connecting arms and if are not correctly secured certainly have potential to cause damage to the lines in question. Just a thought if these have been handled in the past.

I believe both sides share the same solenoid valve so no issues there.

I would attempt to free the locked side by hand whilst mid-cycle, don't force anything too hard. Failing that open the boot and remove the O/S lining and I think this should reveal the catch for further inspection. Off the top of my head I am uncertain if you can access it that well. Try releasing the pump pressure and manually manipulating the cylinder/catch halfway so it has already begun it's travel but not so far it hits the limit switch and thinks the roof is out of sequence.

E89's are awesome mechanisms when they work fluidly, I hope BMW look after you.

 

[t-tony]

My apologies, I didn't realise just the one side was releasing, I agree this sounds like a mechanical/hydraulic issue. The catches we are speaking of are actuated by hydraulic cylinders just like the rear window shell.

If this side isn't releasing this could certainly be an alignment issue if any of the alignment nuts/bolts have worked loose over the year.

This could also be a hydraulic line flow rate issue or the internal seal of the cylinder being damaged for whatever reason. I assume hydraulic oil level for the roof is level and constant.

The hydraulic lines for this cylinder run very close to the connecting arms and if are not correctly secured certainly have potential to cause damage to the lines in question. Just a thought if these have been handled in the past.

I believe both sides share the same solenoid valve so no issues there.

I would attempt to free the locked side by hand whilst mid-cycle, don't force anything too hard. Failing that open the boot and remove the O/S lining and I think this should reveal the catch for further inspection. Off the top of my head I am uncertain if you can access it that well. Try releasing the pump pressure and manually manipulating the cylinder/catch halfway so it has already begun it's travel but not so far it hits the limit switch and thinks the roof is out of sequence.

E89's are awesome mechanisms when they work fluidly, I hope BMW look after you.

My wife has a VW Eos, and to be honest it never ceases to amaze me how these folding "tin tops" work. Just where you start to design such an intricate mechanism I don't know.

Tony.

 

[Redline]

My apologies, I didn't realise just the one side was releasing, I agree this sounds like a mechanical/hydraulic issue. The catches we are speaking of are actuated by hydraulic cylinders just like the rear window shell.

If this side isn't releasing this could certainly be an alignment issue if any of the alignment nuts/bolts have worked loose over the year.

This could also be a hydraulic line flow rate issue or the internal seal of the cylinder being damaged for whatever reason. I assume hydraulic oil level for the roof is level and constant.

The hydraulic lines for this cylinder run very close to the connecting arms and if are not correctly secured certainly have potential to cause damage to the lines in question. Just a thought if these have been handled in the past.

I believe both sides share the same solenoid valve so no issues there.

I would attempt to free the locked side by hand whilst mid-cycle, don't force anything too hard. Failing that open the boot and remove the O/S lining and I think this should reveal the catch for further inspection. Off the top of my head I am uncertain if you can access it that well. Try releasing the pump pressure and manually manipulating the cylinder/catch halfway so it has already begun it's travel but not so far it hits the limit switch and thinks the roof is out of sequence.

E89's are awesome mechanisms when they work fluidly, I hope BMW look after you.

I didn't realise it was a mechanical issue. It's only when you get out and watch what happens you see its just one side releasing. It still reports a sensor error which I presume is one that indicates it hasn't opened when expected.

I'll take a look tomorrow to see if there's anything obvious.

 

[HoodTech]

My wife has a VW Eos, and to be honest it never ceases to amaze me how these folding "tin tops" work. Just where you start to design such an intricate mechanism I don't know.

Tony.

It is very interesting Tony. It is suprising the vast differences between various manufactures, all have their good and bad points. The EOS is a great roof as long as the seals/drains are well looked after, same with any convertible I guess...

 

[HoodTech]

I didn't realise it was a mechanical issue. It's only when you get out and watch what happens you see its just one side releasing. It still reports a sensor error which I presume is one that indicates it hasn't opened when expected.

I'll take a look tomorrow to see if there's anything obvious.

Sounds right. I imagine if both of the switches don't have common values within a certain timeframe this will store a passive fault code. Not certain on this but seems feasible, depends how BMW have programmed their CVM module.

Here is an image with the boot area stripped so you can see the catches adjacent to the inner quarter. You can just about see the cylinder that actuates them, hopefully this gives you some idea.

 

[t-tony]

It is very interesting Tony. It is suprising the vast differences between various manufactures, all have their good and bad points. The EOS is a great roof as long as the seals/drains are well looked after, same with any convertible I guess...

This is the 2nd Eos Shirl has had,when we bought the first one we did a lot of research into these type of cars, Astra, Focus, Renault et al and the Eos came out the best in our price range (it's now 10 years old). I bought a spray of seal dressing from VW which even at a trade price was almost £50 for a small aerosol. We had a small leak at the driver's door upper seal earlier this year and with a good clean and respray it has now gone, although I think a spray with Silicone spray would've had the same result.

Tony.

 

[HoodTech]

I agree, or even a Teflon (PTFE) based product would be great Tony. Although VW advise against the use of silicone on their seals, seems strange to me? Perhaps risk of reaction with the Krytox they use...

Krytox is very expensive and IMHO not really worth it for a window/runner seal, certainly not the be all and end all. There are other products out there that will do the job well and can use over the years without breaking the bank.

We use this stuff in the link below (Gummi Pflege) and have good results, it's way cheaper and also UV resistant unlike Krytox so in theory should hold up when the sun in shining for longer

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Liqui-Moly...9Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=

 

[t-tony]

Yes, Gummi Pfledge is a well known product for use on Z3 window seals on the forum as well as using cycle puncture repair patches at the top of the “A” pillar to stop leaks.

Tony.

 

[Redline]

Have just stripped out the lining to have a look but cannot see anything obviously wrong. Indeed, he hydraulic lines do run rather close to the arms, but I can't see any signs of chafing damage. Wasn't able to get the lining out over the wheel arch, simply for fear of not getting to back in again. I suspect there is a knack to this. Couldn't properly see the catch - mainly because I was working outside in blazing sunshine so seeing wasn't at all easy.

Somewhere I have the technical description document for the roof. I'll dig that out to see if there are any clues.

 

[Nodzed]

Hope you get this sorted easily Ian

 

[Redline]

Hope you get this sorted easily Ian

Am hoping so. Yet another one of those untimely problems.
Just skimmed the technical description and the likely offending hydraulic cylinder is easy to get to. Going for another look as the problem isn't quite where I thought it would be.
The pistons are amazingly small considering the load they carry, but, running at 200 bar then I guess they don't have to be. Wouldn't want to be by one if a seal let go or something.

 

[Nodzed]

I will be very interested in the findings and solutions....just in case

 

[Redline]

I will be very interested in the findings and solutions....just in case

Result - of a kind!

I have identified the cause, Not what I expected. And seemingly entirely BMWs fault.

Went and had another look withe the endoscope camera and discovered that the bolt holding the end of the piston had come out. That means the piston has nothing on which to place opening force against until the ram itself was fully extended. Thankfully, it doesn't look like anything has been damaged.

So, I went in search of the offending bolt - which is actually a pin that should have been held in by a C-clip. After some searching, this pin was nicely nestling right at the bottom of the inner panel.

Completely inaccessible . I borrowed a magnetic screwdriver off my neighbour. Not magnetic

Even if I had been able to recover it, it looks like it's all but impossible to either get the pin in from the far side so a c-clip can be put on this side or inserted this side and the clip on the other side. Complete mechanism might have to come off to fix it.

I suspect that BMW didn't actually re-attach the c-clip when they re-assembled the car after the repairs last year, they damaged/broke it while do the work or simply didn't check it afterwards. The roof worked for the few times it was used late summer last year and then the pin finally gave out on popped out when we first came to use it two weeks or so ago.

Will advise what stance they take when I raise it with them Monday. Somewhat frustrating that on the only nice days we've have when we've had to go out, we've not been able to use the car with the roof down. In fact. despite the weight of the rear panel complete with boot lid I am unsure if it is safe or wise to use the car at all. There is risk that, being unattached at the rhs, that the whole lot might just get ripped out by the vacuum of air passing over it at speed.

 

[Nodzed]

Well in one respect Ian thats a result! At least its an easy fix even if you have to wait a while.