E89 Roof operation impaired!

[HoodTech]

Result - of a kind!

I have identified the cause, Not what I expected. And seemingly entirely BMWs fault.

Went and had another look withe the endoscope camera and discovered that the bolt holding the end of the piston had come out. That means the piston has nothing on which to place opening force against until the ram itself was fully extended. Thankfully, it doesn't look like anything has been damaged.

View attachment 141685

So, I went in search of the offending bolt - which is actually a pin that should have been held in by a C-clip. After some searching, this pin was nicely nestling right at the bottom of the inner panel.

View attachment 141687

Completely inaccessible . I borrowed a magnetic screwdriver off my neighbour. Not magnetic

Even if I had been able to recover it, it looks like it's all but impossible to either get the pin in from the far side so a c-clip can be put on this side or inserted this side and the clip on the other side. Complete mechanism might have to come off to fix it.

I suspect that BMW didn't actually re-attach the c-clip when they re-assembled the car after the repairs last year, they damaged/broke it while do the work or simply didn't check it afterwards. The roof worked for the few times it was used late summer last year and then the pin finally gave out on popped out when we first came to use it two weeks or so ago.

Will advise what stance they take when I raise it with them Monday. Somewhat frustrating that on the only nice days we've have when we've had to go out, we've not been able to use the car with the roof down. In fact. despite the weight of the rear panel complete with boot lid I am unsure if it is safe or wise to use the car at all. There is risk that, being unattached at the rhs, that the whole lot might just get ripped out by the vacuum of air passing over it at speed.

Glad you have found the issue. Annoying as it is, at least it is a straight forward repair requiring a simple c-clip. BMW should have this sorted very quickly.

The pressure from the rear window shell will be secure enough to hold the rear lid for the meantime.

 

[andyglym]

That's a good find that mate

 

[Redline]

Sytner BMW have just said that they didn't remove this pin when they repaired the car. Personally, I cannot see how they could have done it without removing the panel, but, I have no way of proving their assertion. Any expert opinion would be appreciated. I guess they could have just removed the boot panel itself, but then didn't check the load bearing mechanism for damage itself. I can't be bothered to ask the insurance what they actually paid to have done. Want the car back so we can use it.

More worryingly for everyone with an E89 - They also state that this pin is a serviceable part - meaning, it is acceptable for it to fail and, if it does, you have to pay. £250 each side. So, anyone with an E89 - beware. It clearly isn't a part designed to accept a lifetime load and operation. Suddenly, the highlight of the car is also at the same time it's achilles heel.

I suspect they are trying to push back on any costs after recent weeks closure.

I'm 100% certain this wouldn't have happened had the accident not happened. I will pay for them to repair, but, the loss to Sytner's is immediately much much larger. Customer service at it's best? If they had done it without question, we would be there as soon as possible for a replacement car. That won't now happen. Short sighted on their part. Or am I being unfair?

 

[HoodTech]

The retaining pin for that cylinder is located within the mechanism that is mounted the inner quarter panel. From a body repair point of view the shut lines post incident look cosistent so removing that part wouldn't really be of any benefit.

£250 per side sounds very steep. Why can't a replacement clevis pin and clip be installed? We have these lying around in numbers from old frames etc. this would take less than an hour to install.

It will be impossible to prove this would have happened as a result of the incident. Better just to install the replacement pin, forget about the issue and more importantly enjoy your roof while the weather is good!

 

[Redline]

The retaining pin for that cylinder is located within the mechanism that is mounted the inner quarter panel. From a body repair point of view the shut lines post incident look cosistent so removing that part wouldn't really be of any benefit.

£250 per side sounds very steep. Why can't a replacement clevis pin and clip be installed? We have these lying around in numbers from old frames etc. this would take less than an hour to install.

It will be impossible to prove this would have happened as a result of the incident. Better just to install the replacement pin, forget about the issue and more importantly enjoy your roof while the weather is good!

Thanks. Just don’t enjoy being taken for a mug hence the reason for asking. It’s just too much of a coincidence for me. But, I’ll take on board what you say and put it down to s**t happens. They clearly won’t recover the pin and intend using a replacement plus an hours labour. Still stealers when all said and done.

 

[HoodTech]

I completely understand how frustrating it is and of course. You know the finer details and very well may be as a result of negligence.

It's a great shame they aren't willing to negotiate and work things with an existing customer.

Have the technicians show you the working roof before taking the keys off them.

 

[Redline]

I completely understand how frustrating it is and of course. You know the finer details and very well may be as a result of negligence.

It's a great shame they aren't willing to negotiate and work things with an existing customer.

Have the technicians show you the working roof before taking the keys off them.

Will do. Need a new key as one got lost. That’ll have to wait now.
We bought the car from them. Zero goodwill but I’m not surprised.

 

[Redline]

Just another thought - we insisted the car was repaired at a BMW dealer after the accident. This is the thanks we get. One hours labour after they took £9k off the insurance for the repairs. Never again.
My instinct now is that if you're unfortunate to have an accident caused by someone else, either get the car written off or sell immediately it's repaired. This car has become frustrating after being without it now for 11 weeks. Not an albatross, but just a pain.

 

[george irl]

Hello all,
Just new here.
I encounter a roof problem with my E89,
Nice, sunny days in Ireland are not common, so when I get the chance I put the roof down. Unfortunately, the last time I did that, I got an error trying to put it back up. with the boot lid closed and the rear window up top, i could hear the pump in the boot running but nothing happened( bar for the error code of course). It seem to be intermitent, after few trys it worked fine.
While driving with the roof closed, i did get another error on the dash, also roof open error, without touching the opening switch.
I have a cheap OBD scanner that gave me a code 00E8 for the roof section.
Just as a background, recentely i've made the mistake of spraying some lubricant on the folding mechanism, that came out as a foam, which may be the cause...... Any of you had a similar experience? have I sprayed a sensor that is not working properly now?
I hope i can get some guidence here before I go to BMW dealer.
thanks a lot guys

 

[Nodzed]

Hello all,
Just new here.
I encounter a roof problem with my E89,
Nice, sunny days in Ireland are not common, so when I get the chance I put the roof down. Unfortunately, the last time I did that, I got an error trying to put it back up. with the boot lid closed and the rear window up top, i could hear the pump in the boot running but nothing happened( bar for the error code of course). It seem to be intermitent, after few trys it worked fine.
While driving with the roof closed, i did get another error on the dash, also roof open error, without touching the opening switch.
I have a cheap OBD scanner that gave me a code 00E8 for the roof section.
Just as a background, recentely i've made the mistake of spraying some lubricant on the folding mechanism, that came out as a foam, which may be the cause...... Any of you had a similar experience? have I sprayed a sensor that is not working properly now?
I hope i can get some guidence here before I go to BMW dealer.
thanks a lot guys

It could be Hall sensor, wiring issue, hydraulic, relay etc etc.
I cant find that code so I am guessing its not a recognised BMW code but only relevant to your scanner, you need to translate that code to something that is recognisable. Whats the make of the scanner?

 

[gookah]

is it possible that the impact caused the clip to come off and the clevis pin has been gradually working loose, Best to check the other side as well.

 

[george irl]

It could be Hall sensor, wiring issue, hydraulic, relay etc etc.
I cant find that code so I am guessing its not a recognised BMW code but only relevant to your scanner, you need to translate that code to something that is recognisable. Whats the make of the scanner?

Creator C100, for BMW/Mini

 

[Nodzed]

Creator C100, for BMW/Mini

Are you sure that code is correct as I am still finding nothing? Should it not be a 5 digit code?

 

[Redline]

The codes you see are generic codes. A code reader may not tell you what you need to know. I suspect you might need the full diagnostic software to tell you the status of every sensor and sequence of operation. ODBC codes won’t give you that level of detail. There’s a multitude of sensors, latches and valves that make these roofs work properly.

 

[Nodzed]

The codes you see are generic codes. A code reader may not tell you what you need to know. I suspect you might need the full diagnostic software to tell you the status of every sensor and sequence of operation. ODBC codes won’t give you that level of detail. There’s a multitude of sensors, latches and valves that make these roofs work properly.

Better readers will Ian, Carly would give you the correct code / info

 

[Redline]

Better readers will Ian, Carly would give you the correct code / info

I thought codes were generally generic codes with specific meaning shared by manufacturers across much of the reporting on cars. Are they extensible to provide specific codes within a manufacturer or vehicle? Even then there’s a limited number to cope with many configuration specific solutions such as the 18 sensors on folding roofs. Would be possible to report specific modes of failure but not sensor specific. Are there context specific codes that apply to just one model?

 

[Nodzed]

I thought codes were generally generic codes with specific meaning shared by manufacturers across much of the reporting on cars. Are they extensible to provide specific codes within a manufacturer or vehicle? Even then there’s a limited number to cope with many configuration specific solutions such as the 18 sensors on folding roofs. Would be possible to report specific modes of failure but not sensor specific. Are there context specific codes that apply to just one model?

Cant answer that but codes thrown up on Carly for the e89 & e85 have always been specific and descriptive, i.e specified on the e85 which of the 4 airbag sensors was at fault, cant specifically say about roof codes as I fortunately haven't had any as yet

 

[george irl]

thanks guys,
i was out trying to clean up all the grease i applied the other day. it may not be related but i tried anyway. it didn't fix it. it seems that when it closes sees the error. after few tryes eventualy it closes. i may try first a bmw specialist to see if he can figure it out. if that will not work, i'll bite the bullet and go to a dealer.....
cheers

 

[Redline]

thanks guys,
i was out trying to clean up all the grease i applied the other day. it may not be related but i tried anyway. it didn't fix it. it seems that when it closes sees the error. after few tryes eventualy it closes. i may try first a bmw specialist to see if he can figure it out. if that will not work, i'll bite the bullet and go to a dealer.....
cheers

Sounds like a faulty sensor. Thought that was the fault with ours but that turned out to be a pin that had fallen out the mechanism which in turn was due to the accident or faulty repair. Quite likely to be a sensor that is supposed to register when movement has started. If the control doesn’t see them operate when it expects them to if stops operation. It could be the stuff you put on interfering with a sensor. They are Hall Effect switches. Might be interfering with the magnetic effects needed to operate the switch. Just a thought. I have a copy of the technical description of the roof system. If you’re interested I could email you a copy if you think that might help locate the sensors to check.

 

[george irl]

Sounds like a faulty sensor. Thought that was the fault with ours but that turned out to be a pin that had fallen out the mechanism which in turn was due to the accident or faulty repair. Quite likely to be a sensor that is supposed to register when movement has started. If the control doesn’t see them operate when it expects them to if stops operation. It could be the stuff you put on interfering with a sensor. They are Hall Effect switches. Might be interfering with the magnetic effects needed to operate the switch. Just a thought. I have a copy of the technical description of the roof system. If you’re interested I could email you a copy if you think that might help locate the sensors to check.

That would be very much appreciated. So far I located 3 switches( 2 on the driver side and 1 on passenger side) while cleaning my mess. If I will be able to locate the sensors and switches I might( with a bit of allmighty luck) be able to figure out what the problem is.
Thank you