Suddenly Not starting 2.8... Solved...

FRANKIE

Zorg Guru (V)
American Zeds
The M44 Massive
Joined
Sep 2, 2013
Points
193
Location
Egg Harbor Township, New Jersey, USA
Model of Z
Z3
This is a very frustrating problem that must be driving you nuts. Sometimes, when I had similar problems, I would drive the car up on ramps, or jack up the front of the car so I could get to the starter terminals. I then would get jumper cables and hotwire the starter. As I told the rest of the boys, I haven't used my z3 since I drove it home from buying it so I'm not that familiar with everything on the car. So my experience is with other cars. I say this because I don't know where your starter relay is. Its usually on the starter but could be on the firewall. As you know, the largest wire coming off the battery is for the starter. nothing on the car uses as much electric so quickly as the starter. But it starts out as a wire that has connections added to it so it can be hooked up to the battery and the starter. If the problem is in this wire, it will be at 3 possible locations. Either where the wire attaches to the battery connector, where it attaches to the starter connector or a break in the wire itself. Breaks within a wire are the most difficult to detect because they can make a temporary connection and fool you. This is assuming that your connections to the starter and battery are clean. One of the boys earlier, I think it was Aceman, said to get to basics to track this thing down and he's perfectly right. So, when the car doesn't start, and you're able to get under the car, attach the positive jumper cable lead to the terminal the battery lead is attached to and the negative lead to the body of the starter. The other ends of the cables should be attached to your battery. Please note:THIS CAN BE VERY DANGEROUS. You have to be very careful that your cable leads aren't touching anything they shouldn't be touching. YOU MUST BE SURE YOUR IGNITION IS TURNED OFF WHILE DOING THIS. YOU DON'T WANT TO RUN YOURSELF OVER. Doing this will hotwire your starter directly from the batter. The only other electrical wire that needed is to the starter solenoid. Since you hear a "click" when you are trying to start the car, this wire is working. If you are at the point where you have hotwired the starter, get in the car and turn the key as you normally would. If it starts, then there is some problem with either the ground wire from the battery to the car, or the hot wire from the battery to the starter. If you try to start it and it doesn't click, then your starter solenoid wire should be hotwired. This is the dangerous part since you are bypassing all your safety switches and precautions. If your car is in gear while you hotwire the solenoid, your car will move so YOU MUST BE SURE YOU ARE IN NEUTRAL OR PARK AND YOUR HAND BREAK IS ON. Block your wheels. Doing this eliminates EVERYTHING but your starter and battery.
 

billy

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2013
Points
13
Location
norwich
Model of Z
e36 2.8 manual
just looked at your posts are you still having problems? the alternator should charge about 13.2 to 13.8. if the battery is ok and fully charged then you need to start continuity tests ie have got 12v at the starter, have you got a dead spot at the starter have you got 12v at the ignition switch if it comes and goes make sure the earths are all tight and clean they could have built up a resistance if its been standing, but don't throw things at it until you know where the 12v or earth is lost
 

gookah

Zorg Guru (IV)
Supporter
British Zeds
Joined
Dec 7, 2011
Points
170
Location
Shropshire
Model of Z
2.8 Z3
I reckon you have a duff battery that is on occasion failing under load might be the underside of the battery post itself. The alternator seems to be charging it and the voltages it is putting out should be enough, the alternator also has no direct impact on starting as it only works when the engine is running. The battery is in charge of starting, and a click means the solenoid is working but the starter motor probably isn't getting enough juice, thats probably why the using jump leads make an immediate difference, your using another battery.
You need to measure the battery voltage at the moment someone tries to turn over the engine, as with no load on it, it will return to 12v
 

TaffZee

Zorg Guru (V)
Supporter
British Zeds
Joined
Dec 5, 2011
Points
183
Location
Near Llangollen North Wales
Model of Z
Z4 3.0 SE
Have you checked the relay's, that's what it sounds like to me, Sticky/Corroded Relay. In the fuse box.. The relay sends power to the solenoid.

relay.jpg
 
Last edited:

jpr1977

Dedicated Member
Joined
Nov 21, 2012
Points
39
Location
Hants/Surrey
Delayed update, apologies but its been a rather busy couple of weeks, so haven't had a chance to look further until yesterday...

Finally got it started of its own accord by using a jump lead as an auxiliary earth from the negative post on the front arch to the engine block... So obviously its an earthing problem, however does anyone have any reccomendations for 'likely culprits'. Slowly going around all of them (again) but any likely suggestions welcome. I'm going to run a temporary earth for now, however I would like to get to the bottom of the problem, so it works as it should and a solution is found.

Jp
 

EnthuZiaZT

Zorg Guru (V)
British Zeds
East Anglian Crew
Joined
Dec 6, 2011
Points
193
Location
Heacham Norfolk
Model of Z
Z4 28i Msport
I don't know about Z3's, but may cars run an earth lead from the engine to the bodywork, If there is one on a Z3, then that would be the place to start.

Mike
 

jpr1977

Dedicated Member
Joined
Nov 21, 2012
Points
39
Location
Hants/Surrey
Thanks Gents

Sorry what I meant was has anyone come across specific issues/ hidden earths in odd places that would not be obvious to one unfamiliar with a Z3 (though I'm becoming more familiar eveyday with the underbonnet of this car). As i have previously checked/cleaned every earth I can find as part of the recomissioning of this car, including the main earth cable and none are obviously damaged/ cause for concern. I shall be swaping this main cable out as part of my second run around the earths, just in case it breaking down internally due to the load.

Regards

Jp
 

FRANKIE

Zorg Guru (V)
American Zeds
The M44 Massive
Joined
Sep 2, 2013
Points
193
Location
Egg Harbor Township, New Jersey, USA
Model of Z
Z3
Your main ground lead goes to the body of the car, but there is a secondary lead, a wire about the size of a pencil, that goes from the body of the car to somewhere on the engine, often the engine block. I'm not sure where this is on the z3 but most cars have the same setup. At the point where this is attached to the car and the block, corrosion can occur. Also, when people are working on your car, they often might have to physically hold this wire aside to get to a component. Do this enough times and a break can occur inside the wire that is not visible to the eye because of the wire's insulation. Perhaps you have had an occasion to experience this in a household application where you couldn't get a lamp or appliance to work unless you giggled the electric cord. Eventually the entire cord burns out with a loud pop and flash. That happens because both positive and negative wires are running together, though insulated from each other, in the same wire and come in contact with each other when the wire bends and breaks inside. Your car wire, unlike the household wire, only has the negative wire running inside, so that when it breaks, there is only a stoppage of current. Since both ends of the broken wire inside the insulation can still come in contact with each other, when they do, they give the false impression that there is constant continuity permitting you to believe the wire is ok. If the broken ends happen to be touching when you actuate the starter, it will work, only to fail again when these wire ends stop touching each other the next time you try the starter. If this is what's happening in your car, its a quick fix. A piece of good quality multi strand wire with the same size connectors crimped to the ends should solve the problem. Usually these ground wires are in locations easily accessible and no bad language is necessary when replacing them, which I would probably use out of force or habit. I hope this gives you a permanent fix. Frankie
 

jpr1977

Dedicated Member
Joined
Nov 21, 2012
Points
39
Location
Hants/Surrey
So finally we have a car that starts without the addition of extra temporary earths... Still not really sure of the final culprit, however having cleaned up every earth connection I could find, checking wire etc, I thought I would try it again and hey presto fires on the button... The odd thing is that none of the conectors, wires etc I came across showed obvious corossion/failure but cleaned up every single one one with emery paper and it has started everyday since last Friday without fault.. So it finally has tax and is on the road, however the jump leads will remain in the boot just in case, until i am convinced that is.

Thanks to all and it would appear that BMW's share a trait with VW's on the tetchy earth front... So just the overhaul of the suspension units/bushes to go...

Pictures will follow once I've had a chance to clean it...

Jp
 

billy

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2013
Points
13
Location
norwich
Model of Z
e36 2.8 manual
So finally we have a car that starts without the addition of extra temporary earths... Still not really sure of the final culprit, however having cleaned up every earth connection I could find, checking wire etc, I thought I would try it again and hey presto fires on the button... The odd thing is that none of the conectors, wires etc I came across showed obvious corossion/failure but cleaned up every single one one with emery paper and it has started everyday since last Friday without fault.. So it finally has tax and is on the road, however the jump leads will remain in the boot just in case, until i am convinced that is.

Thanks to all and it would appear that BMW's share a trait with VW's on the tetchy earth front... So just the overhaul of the suspension units/bushes to go...

Pictures will follow once I've had a chance to clean it...

Jp
Be careful on the jump lead front, if you jump from another vehicle make sure that vehicle is not running as any increase in battery voltage to your vehicle may blow the ecu!!
 

Brian4

Zorg Guru (IV)
British Zeds
East Anglian Crew
Joined
Dec 23, 2011
Points
173
Location
Near Grantham
Model of Z
Z3 3.0i Auto
I bet you are relieved. It takes a while to restore confidence doesn't it.
 

gookah

Zorg Guru (IV)
Supporter
British Zeds
Joined
Dec 7, 2011
Points
170
Location
Shropshire
Model of Z
2.8 Z3
Be careful on the jump lead front, if you jump from another vehicle make sure that vehicle is not running as any increase in battery voltage to your vehicle may blow the ecu!!
isn't that also what the alternator will do when the car starts? Never come across that problem, or even heard of it before.
 

billy

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2013
Points
13
Location
norwich
Model of Z
e36 2.8 manual
isn't that also what the alternator will do when the car starts? Never come across that problem, or even heard of it before.
yes you hit the Nail on the head its after the car starts the flow is regulated, in some circumstances the extra jump with the other car ie sending out 14v in can spike the ecu we in the garage trade frown on jumping from another vehicle we use jump packs but please go ahead do want you think is right it was just a word of caution!!!
 

jpr1977

Dedicated Member
Joined
Nov 21, 2012
Points
39
Location
Hants/Surrey
The jump lead was being used as an 'extra' earth, not for boost starting.

As for jumping cars, there is always going to be a risk due to its very nature, be it spiked ECU's, blown batteries, pretty sparkly light shows as the leads inadvertently touch etc however on the subject of boosters/jump packs I have heard of more cases of these frying cars electrical circuts than I have through 'normal' jumping, purely because of the very large initial spike that these packs can create. (though on the up side this can lead to bargains at the non-runner sale at the car auctions...)

However as long as the car in question remains starting as it should, the less I shall worry...
 

jpr1977

Dedicated Member
Joined
Nov 21, 2012
Points
39
Location
Hants/Surrey
Afternoon All
Apologies for the delay in updating but life does seem to get in the way of tinkering with cars sometimes...
The Z has behave itself impecably since this starting issue was resolved, it appears that systematic re-cleaning of all of the earths did the trick. This being despite it rarely being used more than once a week given the amout of water in Surrey. Though it has made one trip to the coast on the one sunny Sunday in February.

Any way just a big thank you to all for all their help/reccomendations over the recomissioning of the car. Its now done just over 500km's (yes the speedo is in Km's...) and hasn't missed a beat since being bought back to life bringing it now to just over 45k km's, since 1998...

Couple of quick pics from my phone

Z3.1.JPG Z3 Engine1.JPG


I'll get some more up when the sun eventually decided to visit the UK, but definatley looks better than the last time it featured on these pages.

http://zroadster.org/forum/threads/which-fault-code-reader-reset-tool-help-a-newb.2299/

Jp
 

oldcarman

Zorg Guru (V)
Supporter
Canadian Zeds
The M44 Massive
Joined
Feb 11, 2014
Points
188
Location
Pine Falls Manitoba can.
Model of Z
1.9 M44
Just started with these z's but I do recall in my ebay searches a clutch switch which I take is like having to put your foot on the brake to start newer cars which have a switch that makes a connection. One of my old cars had the clutch switch and the clutch pushed in but the connection wasn't made. A shot of WD40 or something similar should work, can't hurt to check that. Jim
 
Top