Rebody Door locks on Rebody

Duncodin

Zorg Guru (III)
Supporter
Joined
Sep 8, 2021
Points
139
Location
Pontrhydyrun
Model of Z
Z3 M44
I did the surface distance too.

Mine's a tad too high. I'd say your 225 is spot on .

20240510_204114.jpg


Bit of string on the swage line

20240223_113834.jpg
 

argy

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2024
Points
18
Hi Ian,

I might be wrong but I think your handle is too high, but I'm widely open to persuasion.

The first composite image shows the outer door skin in red on the left, so a drivers side viewed from the front of the car.

In yellow, in the middle of the red door skin on the left is the shape of the 507 door handle with the lever and screw thread and the cable clamp hole cut out clearly visible.

To the right and also below are a couple of pinky / purple circles and a scratch line between the two. You can also see the Z3 lever which is what has to move to make things happen, it's also a brassy / yellow colour. The Z3 lever has to follow the scratch line between the purple circles.

You can see, in black, the cable guide which points at the purple circles.

If the handle position moves up or down from where it is currently shown then the bit of the cable guide which aligns with the position of the door handle's cable slot also has to accommodate that shift. Longer if it goes up, shorter if it goes down.



composite door view.png



Below is much the same image but with the handle bit removed and a black marker pen where it was which shows the 235mm position. You can see that it is well aligned with the top purple circle.



Without handle.jpg


So the critical issue is, where, relative to the Z3 lock lever, particularly the top left corner seen from these images, is does it sit?
 

argy

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2024
Points
18
I've looked at other photos and I agree with Ian @Duncodin I'll adjust the design to raise the centre of the handle to be 225 along the surface of the body. That should place the bottom of the handle just above the swage line.
 

10stb

Zorg Addict
Joined
Jun 7, 2019
Points
53
Thanks argy and duncodin for all the info.

Definitely rectangular button works for me so appreciate that you've taken on feedback.

I'm not looking for key entry. Plain button works for me.

In terms of handle position, most pics I've seen are about an inch above the swage line, which I like and would be happy with.

Not sure whether it would work but maybe offer 2 different length cabels that would allow an inch above the swage line or directly on it so that end installer had the option. Like I say, an inch above works for me and if I've misinterpreted the concept, please ignore the above suggestion.

I confess to skim reading but saw template mentioned somewhere......this would be a great idea to help with the correct position for installation.

Keep up the good work 👏
 

Duncodin

Zorg Guru (III)
Supporter
Joined
Sep 8, 2021
Points
139
Location
Pontrhydyrun
Model of Z
Z3 M44
Design drawings etc showed it directly in line with the swage line

Screenshot_20240511-092757_Gallery.jpg

Screenshot_20240511-092846_Gallery.jpg


Above is directly in line with the swage line.

But for production it was moved up an inch or so

20240511_092653.jpg


And here's the assembly line making it so

20240511_092421.jpg
 

argy

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2024
Points
18
Well,...

That's pretty thorough :)

From an implementation perspective 235 mm or even lower is better. I'd centre it on the swage line if it would be acceptable but it'll probably end up where it is at 235mm as seen in the composite photos. I'll see if I can get a photo of where 235mm is when I pop in tomorrow before heading off to sunny Sicilly on Monday morning .
 

Duncodin

Zorg Guru (III)
Supporter
Joined
Sep 8, 2021
Points
139
Location
Pontrhydyrun
Model of Z
Z3 M44
I once saw an early photo of a real car with the handle directly in line with the swage line as per the design drawings. Musta been a prototype. But the light was reflectinģ off the top of the swage highlighting that top surface which, kinda, made it look as though the handle was below the swage if you know what I mean. On paper it looks nice but in life it looked strange.
 

Piran

Dedicated Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2022
Points
41
I'm just waiting on door handles 😁. Is it just me or is there a difference between the drivers and passengers door skin (in the way they go on they were quite different) so there will need to be enough adjustment to compensate for the differences.
 

argy

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2024
Points
18
There is an allowance of 2-3 mm in the current design. If it turns out that there is a consistent difference between the door skins then I can build that in to the design.

I've just ordered a new set of prototypes which should be with me after the end of May bank Holiday.
 

Duncodin

Zorg Guru (III)
Supporter
Joined
Sep 8, 2021
Points
139
Location
Pontrhydyrun
Model of Z
Z3 M44
I'm just waiting on door handles 😁. Is it just me or is there a difference between the drivers and passengers door skin (in the way they go on they were quite different) so there will need to be enough adjustment to compensate for the differences.
When I first fitted my door skins the passenger door needed a bit of chopping at the top front corner by the A pillar. But the rear end of the doors are the same.

argy is measuring down from the top of the door so should be OK.

Having said that I did have to lift my door skins a few mm to get them lined up with the front and rear wings. I suppose that depends on how much material tribute leave on that top flange. Or how well (how high) the rear body shell has been fitted. I'm not sure either of those things can be guaranteed consistent.

Maybe the exact position needs to be measured off of the metal rather than the GRP then it won't matter how high or low the doors skins are because the handle will be the correct place in relation to the door lock mechanism.
 

argy

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2024
Points
18
The system will consist of two parts. The handle assembly which will mount onto the outside fibreglass skin and a cable guide which fixes to the door end panel. The position of the cable guide is fixed and its location is determined by use of a jig.

The handle is approximately level with the guide and so its position should only move closer to or further away from the cable guide. It's in this plane that I've built in the variability.

It's easy enough to accommodate additional variability in this plane but it shouldn't really be much more than a couple of millimeters...
 

Piran

Dedicated Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2022
Points
41
Hope Sicilly was good, any progress with the new prototypes - I want to get my order in :)
 

argy

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2024
Points
18
Hi Piran,

Sicilly was good thanks. I have two suppliers for the handle I sent the order in for the 2nd sample with the 2nd supplier but after a week they hadn't started production so I pulled the order. I'd also made some changes so I sent it to the first supplier. They went in to production last Wednesday so I'm expecting it to be shipped in the next day or so. I'm currently in Bramham for the rest of the week at the horse trials (last holiday until August...) so I expect the samples to be with me around the middle of next week.

I'm hoping that these will be fully functioning samples but I'll not know for sure until I get them.

I'll post some pics as soon as I get them

Cheers
Russell
 

Pond

Zorg Guru (III)
British Zeds
Joined
Dec 26, 2016
Points
144
Location
Spaldingski, Lincs
Model of Z
Z3 project and E89 Z4
Hi Piran,

Sicilly was good thanks. I have two suppliers for the handle I sent the order in for the 2nd sample with the 2nd supplier but after a week they hadn't started production so I pulled the order. I'd also made some changes so I sent it to the first supplier. They went in to production last Wednesday so I'm expecting it to be shipped in the next day or so. I'm currently in Bramham for the rest of the week at the horse trials (last holiday until August...) so I expect the samples to be with me around the middle of next week.

I'm hoping that these will be fully functioning samples but I'll not know for sure until I get them.

I'll post some pics as soon as I get them

Cheers
Russell
Bloody hell Russell. You have more holidays than Judith Chalmers! ;)
 

argy

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2024
Points
18
2nd prototypes have arrived and the first stage of evaluation has been done. I've made a short video which I've attached and which is worth looking at to get the context for my notes below.

This design was a radical change from the first prototype and also from the concept after thinking about what to change.

Looking at the video you will see that I have integrated the cable guide into the base of the handle. With a separate cable guide the costs were rising to an unacceptable level. In the video you can see the cable threaded through the cable guide. This works well but for me there is a tad too much friction so I will redesign the cable guide so that it will accept a brake cable Teflon / PTFE liner and I'll also smooth the curve at the Z3 lock lever end.

The cable was intended to pass through a hole in the M5 thread at the end of the door handle lever such that a lock nut could be fastened down on the cable to keep it in place. Unfortunately the hole made the threaded rod too weak to run a die down whilst creating a clean thread so I'll replace that with an eye at the end of the lever which will take a normal M4 or M5 bolt which can be used to clamp the cable.

This will also allow me to strengthen the handle lever, it'll now be something like a 6mm bar with the eye at the end.

The video shows that the push button action is separated from the lever action. The way that this now works (and works well) is that the push button has the task of moving up and down in the handle well by around 5-6mm and in so doing operates the handle causing it to open by around 15 -18 degrees, the same as the original. The handle is then latched in this position by the spring loaded sliding bolt and the push button returns to its original position under the tension of the spring which you can see in the well of the handle. The centre of the push button slides through a slot in the base of the handle well, this minimises the tendency of the push button to rock backwards and forwards. It can be made to jam by pushing at the front or rear end but it can also be released from the jam by pressing at the other end.

The spring loaded sliding bolt is of similar design to the original but whereas the original would allow you to return the handle from this half cocked position this design does not allow that. It will be necessary to fully operate the handle through to 45 degrees before it will return under the tension of the spring in the Z3 lock (or manually). The reason for this is that the tension of the spring in the Z3 handle is greater than the holding strength of the original bolt so if the button was pressed and released then the handle would close again. I know that it would be simple to grasp the handle whilst it was still open but the other effect of allowing this would be that it could cause the push button to jam and to do so with more force than would be comfortable to release. Because the lever action of the handle is all at the front of the push button and because of the amount of leverage that pushing the handle can impose I think it is best to avoid the risk of jamming the handle under that leverage.

For the same thread cleaning issues as mentioned above I will replace the front M6 threaded rod with a female M6 fastening (similar to the original). It will allow around 6mm of fixing which will probably leave it a millimeter or so proud of the inside of the door panel. I would expect that one or two M10 penny washers will slip over the protrusion before an M6 penny washer can be used to fix it down. In the original they supplied a bridge type of fixing...

Other than that there are a couple of tolerancing issues to improve. Last one was too tight, this one a bit too slack in places so now I know where to land :)

If you look at the video you will notice that there is a key slot in the top of the push button. This will accept the Z3 key (or a screw driver) and will rest in either the open position or, if turned through 90 degrees, in the locked position. This feature will be optional and is a simple mechanism to prevent the handle from being operated by casual passers-by. I will also have a simple push button without the key lock feature which will be the standard offering, the turn key option will probably add £15-20 per side.

All I have to do now is implement the modifications and go through what I hope will be a final phase of prototypes. The changes will take around 2 weeks and the production another 3 or so weeks after that. Beyond that, if everything goes well then I will be happy to polish and sell that prototype if anyone (Piran?) is keen to get their hands on one otherwise it will be another 4 or so weeks after the evaluation before polished products become available.

In the next week or so I will mount one of these prototypes on the door and connect it to the lever so that I can see more accurately where the handle needs to be positioned to ensure that the cable guide is in the right place. I'll need to do this before I finalise the changes to the cable guide and so before I order the next models.

I've added a 2nd video which shows the operation of the push button lock. you have probably noticed that the handle is a bit floppy in these videos, that's only because I haven't included the sliding bolt which keeps everything tethered in place.

Let me know if you have any questions / comments.

Cheers
Russell
 

Attachments

ruan

Dedicated Member
British Zeds
Joined
Apr 26, 2024
Points
28
Location
Berkshire
Model of Z
3
Looking forward to seeing it mounted on the prototype door.
 

Piran

Dedicated Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2022
Points
41
2nd prototypes have arrived and the first stage of evaluation has been done. I've made a short video which I've attached and which is worth looking at to get the context for my notes below.


All I have to do now is implement the modifications and go through what I hope will be a final phase of prototypes. The changes will take around 2 weeks and the production another 3 or so weeks after that. Beyond that, if everything goes well then I will be happy to polish and sell that prototype if anyone (Piran?) is keen to get their hands on one otherwise it will be another 4 or so weeks after the evaluation before polished products become available.
I'm keen - I need to get her ready MOT really by the end of July to make sure that she's ready for the Silverstone festival in August!
Thanks for all your hardwork it's really looking good.
 

argy

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2024
Points
18
Back again,

Now that I have a semi functional version of the handle I've been able to offer it up to the door panel. One snag that I've hit which will take a small redesign is related to the position of the handle with respect to the edge of the door. The first image is a doctored copy of one uploaded by @Duncodin. I've copied and pasted the handle to show its approximate position relative to the door edge. It works out to be around 45 - 50mm from the edge of the door to the edge of the handle. The Z3 door has a 20mm return on it and the lock lever is about another 20mm inside the end panel, then we have to allow a bit of space to get a bolt onto the back of the handle.

handle position inner.jpg


The next couple of images show my spare door panel (or half panel). The first one is an end view which shows the swage line (which I've extended with a pen line) and a couple of other marks which show where the handle needs to sit. The centre of the handle (will be around 20 - 25mm above the swage line. The handle is 28mm wide so the bottom of the handle will be just under 10mm above the swage line. The thick black line is around 235mm from the top of the door panel (where it disappears in to the window frame). The chosen centre line is therefore at around 230mm.

I can confirm that there is some surgery required to the existing door around where the original Z3 handle sat, not much and I will provide some images / dimensions when everything is settled. I can also feel that getting the bolt onto the rear end of the handle will prove to have its challenges, as will attaching the cable to the Z3 lock lever.

20240613_152345.jpg


The next image is from above which shows the approximate position of a cut out of the base of the handle. Apologies to anyone that was expecting more at this stage :)

20240613_152449.jpg



I should have all of the redesigns done by the beginning of next week.

This is probably the last chance to make any positioning input before I commit to producing what I hope will be the final prototype. Just to say, there isn't much scope for changing the position due to the location and the required action of the Z3 lock lever. It's as high up the door as I can afford to go, 10mm lower would make things a little simpler from my perspective and there's almost no scope to move it forwards or backwards from the position shown in these images...

Cheers
Russell
 

Piran

Dedicated Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2022
Points
41
That fibreglass to door fit is much better than mine - I've had to bend the edge of the Z3 door to get the clearance from the new bodywork and try to fit the fibre- even then there's a few mm (particularly at the bottom) wjere the z3 door sticks beyond the fibreglass
 
Top