For the life of me I cannot understand why someone would not do the tracking, it is all standard Z3 isn’t it?
Tony.
ps. Looking forward to the “tuning” developments.
Tony.
ps. Looking forward to the “tuning” developments.
Z3(00S) - EV project
- Thread starter Tom Cheesewright
- Start date
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- Tags
- electric car
I think it's a case of "Computer says no." The system they have you just plug in the make and model and it knows what it should be. Without that he wasn't confident to make adjustments. Mine is sort of standard but it's on coilovers and the weight distribution is obviously different. So I figured I'd take it elsewhere.
PS this isn't the garage who did the MOT - they aren't set up for alignment. It's a tyre place down the road who said 'no'.
Congratulations on fantastic progress to date, been following this with interest even though ( or perhaps because?) I don’t have a scooby about all the electrical & computer stuff.
Question - So having no sill covers was not an issue for the MOT? - I know they’re not structural but my local MOT tester doesn’t seem to....
Question - So having no sill covers was not an issue for the MOT? - I know they’re not structural but my local MOT tester doesn’t seem to....
ANY bolt on panels are simply bodywork and so long as there are no projections or sharp edges it's fine. If your MOT station (testers) don't know that they should be reported to VOSA.
Tony.
Tony.
I couldn't believe it when the tested told me the solution to the rusty hole in my rear wing was duct tape. Lack of sills is a minor issue by comparison!
Just doing away with sharp edges is all Tom. Not perfect but good enough for the test.
Tony.
Tony.
If anyone was listening to Stephen Nolan on 5live at 11:55 tonight and heard someone rattling on about converting an old BMW to electric...yeah that was me.
I'll try and find that tomorrow Tom.
Tony.
Tony.
BBC Radio 5 Live - Stephen Nolan, 30/07/2021
The day's main news stories, topical debate and interviews.
On at 11:55pm in the end
Quick update from a busy day:
- I bypassed the vacuum reservoir and the (I suspect dodgy) t-junction that fed it, hooking the vacuum pump directly to the servo. Sure enough I now seem to have brake assist. That will all need re-engineering when my little control module for the pump is fixed (I don't really want the pump on all the time) but it should suffice for MOT.
- I have aligned the wheels as best I can on the driveway with no equipment. They look pretty straight as best as I can tell - much better than they were. Apps didn't help at all. Just couldn't get a consistent angle reading off them so had to do it by eye. I don't think they need to be perfect to pass though. The fact that I have now done up the locknuts on the steering arms should help!
- As far as I can tell the motor is no longer leaking. This is not because I have fixed anything, but just because the oil in it has dropped to such a level that it is no longer running out. Fixing this properly is a full motor-out job and I don't want to do that before the MOT so hoping this will suffice. The motor's not going to overheat between here and the test station.
- Turns out I didn't need a bulb for the sidelight. I just hadn't connected it. Face, meet palm.
- As I think I mentioned yesterday, I used INPA to reset the airbag light and I've tightened up the seat mountings (another whoops)
- I've secured the front flexi hoses which were an advisory
- That just leaves the sharp-edged rust to cover with tape
Didn't manage to get hold of the garage to book in the retest today but will be on the phone first thing Monday with the aim of getting an appointment on Wednesday (Monday/Tuesday busy with family stuff).
Looking at what it failed on, I can't believe I missed some of the stuff. I think I was so convinced it would fail that I wasn't that rigorous. Lesson learned.
I did all the tuning today, setting various parameters on the throttle, inverter and motor. Don't think it's fully dialled in yet and I won't be able to fully test it until the next run to the MOT station. But just rolling back and forth in the driveway it felt much more eager. Fingers crossed.
Whether or not it passes I'll be taking a couple of weeks off from work and from the project before we head to the Stoneleigh kit car show at the end of August. Hoping between now and then Tribute Automotive decide to take a stand and/or there are some built up Z300s/Z3GTs on display...
- I bypassed the vacuum reservoir and the (I suspect dodgy) t-junction that fed it, hooking the vacuum pump directly to the servo. Sure enough I now seem to have brake assist. That will all need re-engineering when my little control module for the pump is fixed (I don't really want the pump on all the time) but it should suffice for MOT.
- I have aligned the wheels as best I can on the driveway with no equipment. They look pretty straight as best as I can tell - much better than they were. Apps didn't help at all. Just couldn't get a consistent angle reading off them so had to do it by eye. I don't think they need to be perfect to pass though. The fact that I have now done up the locknuts on the steering arms should help!
- As far as I can tell the motor is no longer leaking. This is not because I have fixed anything, but just because the oil in it has dropped to such a level that it is no longer running out. Fixing this properly is a full motor-out job and I don't want to do that before the MOT so hoping this will suffice. The motor's not going to overheat between here and the test station.
- Turns out I didn't need a bulb for the sidelight. I just hadn't connected it. Face, meet palm.
- As I think I mentioned yesterday, I used INPA to reset the airbag light and I've tightened up the seat mountings (another whoops)
- I've secured the front flexi hoses which were an advisory
- That just leaves the sharp-edged rust to cover with tape
Didn't manage to get hold of the garage to book in the retest today but will be on the phone first thing Monday with the aim of getting an appointment on Wednesday (Monday/Tuesday busy with family stuff).
Looking at what it failed on, I can't believe I missed some of the stuff. I think I was so convinced it would fail that I wasn't that rigorous. Lesson learned.
I did all the tuning today, setting various parameters on the throttle, inverter and motor. Don't think it's fully dialled in yet and I won't be able to fully test it until the next run to the MOT station. But just rolling back and forth in the driveway it felt much more eager. Fingers crossed.
Whether or not it passes I'll be taking a couple of weeks off from work and from the project before we head to the Stoneleigh kit car show at the end of August. Hoping between now and then Tribute Automotive decide to take a stand and/or there are some built up Z300s/Z3GTs on display...
Taken from my blog post, titled 'Fail, but in a bad way'...
"I went into the first MOT test with genuinely zero expectation that we would pass. I needed a to-do list but there were some things I thought would rule out a pass first time. So when we failed so narrowly, I was elated.
Going into the retest I was much more nervous. It felt like there was a real chance we would pass. I was infected with hope. As you may have guessed from the title of this post, that hope was swiftly dashed.
Things started well enough. The drive over started great, with the car feeling much more planted, the brakes now being on good form, and the tuning I’d done making it much more lively. There was only one event where we suddenly lost torque but it came straight back.
But the closer we got to the MOT station, the more the occasional squeak from the engine bay that had appeared on the previous visit became a persistent squeal.
Handing the keys over to the mechanic, he took it for a short drive down the road. It stalled and wouldn’t restart. And that squeak just got louder.
Between the stall, the squeak, and the fact that my eyeballed attempt at tracking was off the mark, he refused to do the retest saying he couldn’t be confident the car was safe for the road.
Gutted.
So, we brought the car home again for more work. The tracking is simple enough – I got the wheels straight relative to each other but didn’t realise you also needed to align the steering wheel so that it is ‘straight’ when the wheels are straight. I was going to leave that to the professionals once I got the car good enough for the road. Rookie mistake. Lesson learned. But the drop-out events and the squeak are much more of an issue.
I decided to turn my deflated frustration into motion and set about stripping the whole lot down to find the cause of the squeak. A little testing had made it very clear it was coming from the coupler that sits between the motor and gearbox. I had always been aware this could be an issue but in all my early testing, it seemed to be fine. Only when it had been driven under load a couple of times did its weaknesses become apparent.
Removing it means taking almost everything from the car: draining cooling loops, stripping off the front bumper and valance, dropping the battery box, jacking up the transmission, disconnecting low and high voltage wiring, removing the inverter and charger, and unbolting the mounting frame. Only then can you split the motor from the adaptor plate and remove the coupler.
Sure enough, it is bent. In rotation, one end clearly moves back and forth by at least a millimetre. And at least one of the splined clutch centres is not square. Whether it was when I first put it in, I just don’t know. After all is was made with a hammer on a Black and Decker workmate, not in a proper machine shop. I thought it was good enough but clearly not.
The hard truth is that I’m not going to get in for a retest within the ten day limit. Instead, I’m going to have to send the coupler off to a machine shop. And then hope that when it returns, the motor will still bolt up to the adaptor plate once it is properly aligned with the gearbox. It will be September before I can try again.
In the meantime, I hope I can resolve the tuning issues and understand why I’m losing traction. And sort out the issues with the battery management system that have left me charging manually.
Until next time…"
"I went into the first MOT test with genuinely zero expectation that we would pass. I needed a to-do list but there were some things I thought would rule out a pass first time. So when we failed so narrowly, I was elated.
Going into the retest I was much more nervous. It felt like there was a real chance we would pass. I was infected with hope. As you may have guessed from the title of this post, that hope was swiftly dashed.
Things started well enough. The drive over started great, with the car feeling much more planted, the brakes now being on good form, and the tuning I’d done making it much more lively. There was only one event where we suddenly lost torque but it came straight back.
But the closer we got to the MOT station, the more the occasional squeak from the engine bay that had appeared on the previous visit became a persistent squeal.
Handing the keys over to the mechanic, he took it for a short drive down the road. It stalled and wouldn’t restart. And that squeak just got louder.
Between the stall, the squeak, and the fact that my eyeballed attempt at tracking was off the mark, he refused to do the retest saying he couldn’t be confident the car was safe for the road.
Gutted.
So, we brought the car home again for more work. The tracking is simple enough – I got the wheels straight relative to each other but didn’t realise you also needed to align the steering wheel so that it is ‘straight’ when the wheels are straight. I was going to leave that to the professionals once I got the car good enough for the road. Rookie mistake. Lesson learned. But the drop-out events and the squeak are much more of an issue.
I decided to turn my deflated frustration into motion and set about stripping the whole lot down to find the cause of the squeak. A little testing had made it very clear it was coming from the coupler that sits between the motor and gearbox. I had always been aware this could be an issue but in all my early testing, it seemed to be fine. Only when it had been driven under load a couple of times did its weaknesses become apparent.
Removing it means taking almost everything from the car: draining cooling loops, stripping off the front bumper and valance, dropping the battery box, jacking up the transmission, disconnecting low and high voltage wiring, removing the inverter and charger, and unbolting the mounting frame. Only then can you split the motor from the adaptor plate and remove the coupler.
Sure enough, it is bent. In rotation, one end clearly moves back and forth by at least a millimetre. And at least one of the splined clutch centres is not square. Whether it was when I first put it in, I just don’t know. After all is was made with a hammer on a Black and Decker workmate, not in a proper machine shop. I thought it was good enough but clearly not.
The hard truth is that I’m not going to get in for a retest within the ten day limit. Instead, I’m going to have to send the coupler off to a machine shop. And then hope that when it returns, the motor will still bolt up to the adaptor plate once it is properly aligned with the gearbox. It will be September before I can try again.
In the meantime, I hope I can resolve the tuning issues and understand why I’m losing traction. And sort out the issues with the battery management system that have left me charging manually.
Until next time…"
Sorry that you are experiencing all these issues Tom, but, as a Pioneer (for that is what you are) I hope you can surmount all the problems and continue with the build. Have a good break and get back to it as and when you can. Watching with great interest from near Lincoln.
Tony.
Thanks Tony. Very disappointed yesterday but now looking at it as an opportunity to make some improvements - things I was going to do anyway, just a bit sooner than planned!
Chin up hey Tom. You're a big winner for getting this far and the current issue won't stop you. A setback but will only affect timing of the completion.
Thank you. Feeling alright about it this morning. Opportunity to make some upgrades while it's all apart. But first, a break!
After I posted about my MOT woes on the Open Inverter forum, the ever-helpful Damien Maguire chipped in. It seems my occasional loss of torque may be related to a temperature issue with the Prius Gen 3 inverter.
Damien, who runs this setup in his E39, has found that this inverter needs serious coolant flow to keep it cool. Without this, the remaining Toyota brain in it (after I transplanted its main brain for one of Damien’s boards), shuts things down temporarily if temperature starts to spike.
It turns out Damien used to run almost the exact same coolant pump I am running now (pictured) (a clone of Bosch units used in VWs) and had very similar problems. So I shall be shopping for an upgrade. Damien recommends the pumps from the 1-series, so I shall try to source something of that type or similar.
Easing bleeding
While I’m fitting this, I’m going to take a couple of extra steps to ensure things stay cool. First, I’m going to raise the radiator (1) up slightly to ease bleeding. It can only go so far without fouling the bonnet but a couple of inches should make all the difference.
To do this I will have to re-route the power to the charger (2), from the front of the inverter to the side. The inverter has two ancillary power connections around the top of the case. One is for the air conditioning system, the other for the charger. I was originally going to use the side connection (A/C) for the heater, but with the plans I have for the battery box and high voltage switching (subject for a future post), this will no longer be needed. The result will clear space for the radiator and look a bit tidier too.
To relocate the radiator, I will also need to make up new brackets. Only my sixth, possibly seventh iteration…
Hose tidy
I will also try to shorten one of the hose connections on the side of the inverter, which is currently pressing on one of the charger mounts, making fitting difficult and creating a future leak risk.
The hoses have been removed in the picture but you can see how the outlet from the inverter (3) is directly opposite, and quite close to, the charger mount (4). Depending on the layout of the pump’s inlet and outlet, I may need to reroute some of the hoses in any case.
Motor cooling
One of the other issues I never really solved for the MOT second attempt was the oil leak from the motor or motor cooling system. While the whole car is apart I plan to leak-test the motor, which should see me nicely covered in ATF again. I’m really coming to hate that burned Ribena smell.
I suspect oil is weeping out of some aged gaskets and some threads, so I will make up some new gaskets where needed, sealing it with paper or RTV as appropriate, and apply some thread sealer where needed.
I am also going to relocate the whole motor cooling package. I originally had it placed down to the side of the motor, as highlighted on the image below. You can just about make out the circular brackets for the reservoir behind the angled motor mount on this early picture. This is a nightmare to access once everything is installed and made hooking things up and diagnosing the leak really tricky.
Instead I am going to relocate the pump, radiator and reservoir to the front behind the grill – the location I once had the water cooling radiator mounted. This didn’t work because it put the filler for the reservoir below the level of the inverter and charger. But with a bit of fettling, it should be roughly in line with the motor sump, so this should work nicely.
(Picture the oil cooler, pump and reservoir mounted here, just behind the grill, in place of this radiator)
At the same time I may return to my original oil pump. I dropped this because of its insane flow rate that drained the reservoir in seconds. But the replacement sounds terrible – “like artillery” is how one fellow EVer described it. If I can control the flow rate with some sort of PWM input, or have the pump run intermittently, the original may be the better option – especially once the motor isn’t leaking everywhere.
People power
While I’m thinking about all this, two other forum members are tackling two of my other remaining issues. I posted my bent coupler off to one person who offered to have a friendly fabricator take a look. And I sent my battery management system off to another, who has already managed to get the CANbus interfaces working that I couldn’t. With a little luck I may be able to reassemble the car not long after I get back from a little jaunt.
Upgrades along the way
Depending on how soon those parts return, I’m likely to make a couple more upgrades before reassembly.
First, a redesigned version of the brake booster pump control board that failed should be winging its way to me in a couple of weeks. This hooks up to a sensor to only turn on the brake booster pump when there is insufficient vacuum to provide brake boost. A voltage spike wiped out the regulator that should have seen the numbers in this picture at 5V rather than nearly 12. The new version has a bit more protection against such spikes.
With this in place we will also reconnect our brake reservoir, with a less leaky T-junction than the one that let us down on the first MOT attempt.
Second, I want to tidy up my adaptor plate. This was pretty much the first thing we made on this project and it is frankly, ugly. It is likely to need some modifications once the new coupler comes back in any case: a straight coupler may mean that the mounting holes for the motor no longer line up.
In retrospect, I wish I had tapped the mounting holes rather than trying to weld on captive nuts. If I was remaking it from scratch, that’s what I would do. But I can at least fix the captive nuts properly. Many have fallen off, making assembly tricky. I can also trim off a lot of excess material, saving some weight. And I can tidy up the weld spatter and give the whole thing a nice coat of paint.
With a tail wind and some kind weather, we might be ready for another run at the MOT this time next month. And this time, we’re going to nail it.
Damien, who runs this setup in his E39, has found that this inverter needs serious coolant flow to keep it cool. Without this, the remaining Toyota brain in it (after I transplanted its main brain for one of Damien’s boards), shuts things down temporarily if temperature starts to spike.
It turns out Damien used to run almost the exact same coolant pump I am running now (pictured) (a clone of Bosch units used in VWs) and had very similar problems. So I shall be shopping for an upgrade. Damien recommends the pumps from the 1-series, so I shall try to source something of that type or similar.
Easing bleeding
While I’m fitting this, I’m going to take a couple of extra steps to ensure things stay cool. First, I’m going to raise the radiator (1) up slightly to ease bleeding. It can only go so far without fouling the bonnet but a couple of inches should make all the difference.
To do this I will have to re-route the power to the charger (2), from the front of the inverter to the side. The inverter has two ancillary power connections around the top of the case. One is for the air conditioning system, the other for the charger. I was originally going to use the side connection (A/C) for the heater, but with the plans I have for the battery box and high voltage switching (subject for a future post), this will no longer be needed. The result will clear space for the radiator and look a bit tidier too.
To relocate the radiator, I will also need to make up new brackets. Only my sixth, possibly seventh iteration…
Hose tidy
I will also try to shorten one of the hose connections on the side of the inverter, which is currently pressing on one of the charger mounts, making fitting difficult and creating a future leak risk.
The hoses have been removed in the picture but you can see how the outlet from the inverter (3) is directly opposite, and quite close to, the charger mount (4). Depending on the layout of the pump’s inlet and outlet, I may need to reroute some of the hoses in any case.
Motor cooling
One of the other issues I never really solved for the MOT second attempt was the oil leak from the motor or motor cooling system. While the whole car is apart I plan to leak-test the motor, which should see me nicely covered in ATF again. I’m really coming to hate that burned Ribena smell.
I suspect oil is weeping out of some aged gaskets and some threads, so I will make up some new gaskets where needed, sealing it with paper or RTV as appropriate, and apply some thread sealer where needed.
I am also going to relocate the whole motor cooling package. I originally had it placed down to the side of the motor, as highlighted on the image below. You can just about make out the circular brackets for the reservoir behind the angled motor mount on this early picture. This is a nightmare to access once everything is installed and made hooking things up and diagnosing the leak really tricky.
Instead I am going to relocate the pump, radiator and reservoir to the front behind the grill – the location I once had the water cooling radiator mounted. This didn’t work because it put the filler for the reservoir below the level of the inverter and charger. But with a bit of fettling, it should be roughly in line with the motor sump, so this should work nicely.
At the same time I may return to my original oil pump. I dropped this because of its insane flow rate that drained the reservoir in seconds. But the replacement sounds terrible – “like artillery” is how one fellow EVer described it. If I can control the flow rate with some sort of PWM input, or have the pump run intermittently, the original may be the better option – especially once the motor isn’t leaking everywhere.
People power
While I’m thinking about all this, two other forum members are tackling two of my other remaining issues. I posted my bent coupler off to one person who offered to have a friendly fabricator take a look. And I sent my battery management system off to another, who has already managed to get the CANbus interfaces working that I couldn’t. With a little luck I may be able to reassemble the car not long after I get back from a little jaunt.
Upgrades along the way
Depending on how soon those parts return, I’m likely to make a couple more upgrades before reassembly.
First, a redesigned version of the brake booster pump control board that failed should be winging its way to me in a couple of weeks. This hooks up to a sensor to only turn on the brake booster pump when there is insufficient vacuum to provide brake boost. A voltage spike wiped out the regulator that should have seen the numbers in this picture at 5V rather than nearly 12. The new version has a bit more protection against such spikes.
With this in place we will also reconnect our brake reservoir, with a less leaky T-junction than the one that let us down on the first MOT attempt.
Second, I want to tidy up my adaptor plate. This was pretty much the first thing we made on this project and it is frankly, ugly. It is likely to need some modifications once the new coupler comes back in any case: a straight coupler may mean that the mounting holes for the motor no longer line up.
In retrospect, I wish I had tapped the mounting holes rather than trying to weld on captive nuts. If I was remaking it from scratch, that’s what I would do. But I can at least fix the captive nuts properly. Many have fallen off, making assembly tricky. I can also trim off a lot of excess material, saving some weight. And I can tidy up the weld spatter and give the whole thing a nice coat of paint.
With a tail wind and some kind weather, we might be ready for another run at the MOT this time next month. And this time, we’re going to nail it.
Hi Tom,
This has been a great read. Just gone start to finish. Well done to you as your attitude to problem solving has been very inspiring.
I’d love to EV my Tribute Kobra as know it is the way forward for cars ‘ with individuality’.
Best of luck with the next stages.
On a side note I would check with Chris at Tribute regarding the 300S model as I’m not sure it is part of his std portfolio these days.
Thanks again and keep going.
Dave
This has been a great read. Just gone start to finish. Well done to you as your attitude to problem solving has been very inspiring.
I’d love to EV my Tribute Kobra as know it is the way forward for cars ‘ with individuality’.
Best of luck with the next stages.
On a side note I would check with Chris at Tribute regarding the 300S model as I’m not sure it is part of his std portfolio these days.
Thanks again and keep going.
Dave
Thanks Dave. Much appreciated.
And thanks for the info on Tribute. That model is still on the website but not sure how up to date that is. Hoping to see them at Stoneleigh but will give them a bell if not.
I would call Chris as unsure that he will be at Stoneleigh. Not as an exhibitor anyway. I have not spoken to him in months but know that Stoneleigh gave new dates quickly and so some companies are more ready than others in having stands etc.
Keep up the good work and hope to see your car in the flesh one day.
Dave
Great chat with Chris at Tribute @DaveP - good idea. Explained where we're at, had a chat about relative weight (the hardtops are apparently slightly more than the original panels so I'm assuming the soft top will be roughly the same), and agreed I'll give him a bell as soon as I have a garage secured to do the build (though if needed, I'll continue on the drive). He's still making the Z300S to order (as he says, they have the moulds as "we never throw anything away").
In other updates:
- My battery management system board has been sorted out by a friend and is on its way back to me with all four CANBus interfaces working, so I should now be able to control my charger from there rather than doing it manually
- I haven't had any joy with the machinist who I sent the coupler to, but in some ways I'm quite glad about that. Because a) it means I can claim to have done it all (apart from the code help above) and b) it means I have an excuse to buy some new power tools so...
- I'm buying a lathe and building a workbench in the back garden to put it on, along with a permanent welding table, my pillar drill, and chop saw. No more working on a rusty Workmate.
- Currently clearing the space for this all to go and about to order the bench which I will wrap in well-waterproofed OSB to keep it all dry. Was going to build the bench but it's actually cheaper to buy than build.
The guy is sending my coupler back and when I'm all set up I'll cut it down and rebuild it - straight this time.
In the meantime, the same guy who sorted my BMS has got his Beetle MOT'd, using the same components as me (albeit with a different battery pack), and been driving it around. You can see the videos here: https://www.youtube.com/c/JamieJones1985/videos. He has learned a fair bit about the tuning that will help me avoid the cut outs. Though there is still a long way to go to get the sort of performance we're hoping for.
In other updates:
- My battery management system board has been sorted out by a friend and is on its way back to me with all four CANBus interfaces working, so I should now be able to control my charger from there rather than doing it manually
- I haven't had any joy with the machinist who I sent the coupler to, but in some ways I'm quite glad about that. Because a) it means I can claim to have done it all (apart from the code help above) and b) it means I have an excuse to buy some new power tools so...
- I'm buying a lathe and building a workbench in the back garden to put it on, along with a permanent welding table, my pillar drill, and chop saw. No more working on a rusty Workmate.
- Currently clearing the space for this all to go and about to order the bench which I will wrap in well-waterproofed OSB to keep it all dry. Was going to build the bench but it's actually cheaper to buy than build.
The guy is sending my coupler back and when I'm all set up I'll cut it down and rebuild it - straight this time.
In the meantime, the same guy who sorted my BMS has got his Beetle MOT'd, using the same components as me (albeit with a different battery pack), and been driving it around. You can see the videos here: https://www.youtube.com/c/JamieJones1985/videos. He has learned a fair bit about the tuning that will help me avoid the cut outs. Though there is still a long way to go to get the sort of performance we're hoping for.